Rust Issues - Need advice and opinions (long)

[jkransbottom]

Hi All. I need some advice about my rust issues and how to proceed. Here's a quick summary of how I got to where I am.

I bought a '77 Sport last year that wasn't perfect but had had a lot of restoration work done. It wasn't a body off but still seemed like really solid work. Well, my wife got me one of the BC Bronco family cages for Fathers Day and I wanted to get the inside of the tub Line-Xed before having the cage put in. It had a heavy vinyl floor covering installed when I bought it and I checked under it for rust the best I could before buying it and couldn't find any real problems. I took out the seats and the floor cover and it still didn't look too bad. There was what looked to be DIY bedliner or rust preventative that had been sprayed in and then painted to match the body color. The guy at Line-X said it would all have to come out before he could spray it or it wouldn't stick.

So I started scraping and grinding this stuff out and have found quite a few rust areas underneath and some holes, mostly where the front of the floor bed and the raised platform for the front seats come together and in the corners in front of the rear wheel wells. The guy at the shop I'm working with is saying he can cut out the bad metal and patch it instead of replacing full panels. What would you do - patch or replace the bad panels? Also, what do you guys think of this pricing and plan to deal with the problems:

Soda blast interior: $200
Repair cancerous rust areas: $500 - $1000 (he said $1000 was worst case just so I don't get sticker shock later and it will depend on how much time it takes him to do it)
POR-15 entire inside of tub after repairs: Doing this myself/cost of materials
Line-X: $550
Weld and install the cage: $500
Powdercoat cage: $200

Grand Total to install my new cage: roughly $2500 (assuming worst case scenario mentioned above)

I've never done anything like this before so please let me know what you think about whether to repair or replace panels, the current plan of action, and the quoted pricing of the work involved. Any help would really be appreciated as I'm definitely a fish out of water at this point.

Thanks in advance.

 

[tasker]

really cool looking truck for starters. I'm running into far worse under my rhino lining. Seemed solid enough when i started but the more i touch the worse it gets. Truck seems well worth putting the extra effort, do it once and don't regret it later. i wish mine were anywhere near that nice, good luck with it.

 

[Tito]

Man its soooooo pretty on the outside!!!! Looks like a lot of patchwork has been done already to it. The rust hole areas are in each of the panels too. Hmmm. I just replaced my floor from firewall to tailgate, it wasnt bad but it was still a lot of work. I might just continue the patch work to fix those holes. I take it you dont weld...yet ;D I didnt before I undertook the floor situation in mine. To do it right though as many will say is replace all that floor. Its a tough choice. If you are going to replace the floor you can skip steps 1 and 3 and just do 2 and 4. I am interested in hearing some other opinions too. Like I said before that thing is pretty!

 

[Mark]

Replace the front floor pans do NOT patch them.
I just replaced my passenger floor pan this weekend and it was in a lot better shape than yours. It took all weekend, but it looks good.
Your bronco, looks great on the outside will gain value better if you do the pans right.
Do it yourself - it's easy. If I can do it, anyone can. Cost me $73 for the floor pan at JBG. Do you have a welder? If not, buy one, they come in handy. You'll start finding things to weld just for fun. It's like a hot glue gun, only with metal! Working on Broncos is fun!

 

[Mikey]

Mine's in far worse condition and I have already replaced the entire front floor pans, wheel wells in the back, rear inner quarters and front and rear wheel well filler panels (the squares in front and rear of the rear wells). No rear bed panel existed when I started so I patched all the holes there.

Never welded before and now I have a new skill. My exterior is even worse so more welding is on the way.

To answer your question....rust will be further than what you see. New panels are thicker than stock. So, patch where it makes sense and replace entire panels where that makes sense.

Not being mean, but, if it's too much work, then you should buy one already done as hiring someone to do it right will probably be cost-prohibitive.

On mine, my welding looks awful but hides under carpet. I did full seam welds rather than stitch welds. did this for strength. At first, all seemed overwhelming but I just did the repairs in stages.....and I'm nowhere near finished!

Talk about pride!!! What a feeling of accomplishment!

 

[fireman1749]

man i hope its not like that under that paint!! how old is the paint job?

 

[kbldawg]

Patch where you can and use full panels where you have to.

Unless you just like the idea of having all new metal, there's really no need to replace good metal. You can use the POR-15 or some other stuff for surface rust.

my $0.02

 

[JohnJohn]

You could save money by buying a welder and doing it yourself.

There is only one way to fix rust and that is to cut it out and replace it. Patching can take more time and effort than replacing the whole pannel.

I have learned this the hard way.

It looks like a very nice truck. It would be a shame to take short cuts on a rig like that.

 

[tooqk4u22]

Replace the panels. I agree patching is a pain with all the small cuts and welds - it may be cheaper but if it is more than one or two small areas it will take forever. I also learned the hard way and patched up one side of my rear inner quarter - now I am thinking of cutting it all out and putting in new inner quarters and wheel wells instead of patching them. Effort lost on my part but chalk it up to a learning experience.

Mikey (or anyone else) - how did you approach the inner quarters?

 

[jkransbottom]

First, thank you all for your replies and input.

Actually, the driver and passenger floor pans aren't as bad as they look. The holes in the front floor pan areas are really jagged cuts the PO did (or had done) when they put the replacement pans in. They left those cut outs there to access the body mount bolts. We were going to clean up the holes and use the rubber drain plugs that come in a Heep to cover the "access" holes.

If I were to try to fix this myself, is there someplace I can get some quick tips on how to weld? What type of welder would I want to use? How do I cut out the old stuff? Also, this is the really big question: I asked the guy at the shop about replacing all the floor panels and rear bed and he was concerned about how to brace the body so it doesn't flex or bend while cutting out large sections like the bed. How would I support it so I don't end up creating more issues?

Thanks again to everyone.

 

[302fix]

Go to Airgas.com and use the store locator. I'm sure there is one around you. I bought my welder there with everything ready to go including instructions and a small class for around $900.
Then go to a local metal supply shop and get some 20 and 18 gague metal and get to work.
It's fun, easy and yet another thing you can say you did yourself.
Since it will be under the LineX, perfection won't be critical.

Also if you're going to LineX I don't think Por15 is necessary or even desired by the LineX guys. Might want to check with them first.

Nice rig.

It may look like a big job to you now but if you have some time to spend on it you can learn as you go and get things just right.

 

[broncorick]

It is worth it to tear out all the old band-aid patches an do it right, especially as nice as the body looks. You will kick your self if you take short cut now. It is one thing to slap in patched on a rock crawler or a bronco you are going to abuse, but you have a nice start. You might look into community college for welding courses. Or just buy a good MIG welder (don't go cheap, get the best you can afford) and start practicing.

 

[Mark]

Actually, the driver and passenger floor pans aren't as bad as they look. The holes in the front floor pan areas are really jagged cuts the PO did (or had done) when they put the replacement pans in. They left those cut outs there to access the body mount bolts. We were going to clean up the holes and use the rubber drain plugs that come in a Heep to cover the "access" holes.

Sorry, I know you don't want to hear this, but those are low quality "patch" panels put in. I think I see pop rivets. They look cheap and bad. Quality replacement pans like the link below are ribbed like factory and have a dimple for the body mount. If you do it right, it will look factory.
http://broncograveyard.com/bronco/i-14070_floor_pan_with_groves___body_mount_recess.htm

 

[trailpsycho]

If you do a search (use the search tab above) on 'floorpan replacement', you will find some excellent threads (some are long) where others have chronicled the process they followed. There is quite a bit of reading you can do here; alot of excellent advice.

As far as a MIG welder goes...you can get a Lincoln, Hobart or Miller (in the 135; so 110 V) for below $500. If you have 220 power out to your garage a 220 unit is much more powerful...but not necessary, IMO. It all depends on how much/if the farbication-bug bites you. I recently welded with a Miller 250X and it was awesome (especially after working with my Lincoln 135), but it also retails for ~5X as much. So, weigh it all out. A class at a local comm college or arts center is a great idea.

The floor pans dont look bad (rust-wise), but I prefer the look of the original ribbed pans. With your truck--as clean as it looks--I would go back to stock ribbed floor pans. BUT, Its all up to you. As well, it looked like there was some boogery in the Dr floor pan a little up from the "flat pans" meet the firewall (lower angled section). The replacement ribbed floors come high enough up that you can cut all the boogery out. If you do decide to take on this work yourself. Remove the doors, the front fenders, the hood, the tailgate and fold down the windshield and cover it as well....for their protection. As well, run tape along the inside of the bedrail (good painter's tape) and then drape some canvas or other flame retardant cloth over the bedrails to protect the paint on the rear quarters. This should allow you to make an open assault on the floorpans and rear floor without worry of damaging that really nice paint job with splatter, embers, metal dust, etc.

All of the panels that look questionable are available from JBG, WH, Toms or a few other vendor sources. The JBG front floorpans fit very well for me. As far as cutting: A die-grinder with a cut off wheel (using an air compressor), a 4" angle grinder with a cut off wheel (be careful this cuts very fast and can get away from you, if you arent used to it), a body saw (also uses compressed air). For cleaning up the steel, grinding down welds, etc, the die grinder and angle grinder are your best friends. Practice, practice practice. Did I mention you will also want to have a compressor? There is a significant investment in tools, initially, but its worth it, if you have the time, patience and persistance to see it through. Good luck.

Get a plan together, come back, run it by the group and we will try to get you on the right track. Otherwise, buy your wife some jewelry and cross your fingers...body shops and panel repair get expensive very quickly...if you can get them to do it the right way...IF you go that route make sure you know how they will make the repair and that its done properly.

Also, Line-X is a good choice. Again, good luck.

John

 

[00gyrhed]

Buy a welder and learn. Lowes and Home depot have 220V welders for $500-$600. 110V is cheaper but 220 will be better for the roll cage and the 220V will be easier for you to learn on. Believe it or not you will probably learn to do it yourself and finsh before the body shop finishes. Sandblast after only if you have to. You can grind the areas you need to weld clean.

I have a place here in mesquite tx that quoted me $350 to sandblast and powder coat my front plate bumper with light bar and brush gaurd, my rear plate bumper with spare tire carrier and tool box, and my full cage. I have used them twice before in the last ten years so its not like I am a good customer or anything and they did a ggod job the other times.

 

[jkransbottom]

Thanks again everyone. Does anyone know about the body bracing issue the guy at the shop referred to? If I cut out the rear bed am I going to bend or damage the rear body panels due to stress? If so what will I need to do to support the body during the repair?

Trailpsycho, I have an angle grinder already. If I use that to cut out the bad panels would I still need a compressor? I've always sort of wanted one but I couldn't justify it just to maintain the air pressure in the tires before.

Oh, and one more thing for now. I'm looking through my Northern Tools catalog and the MIG welders in there say things like "can weld 24-gauge up to 5/16" metal". I know most of the replacement panels from the vendors come in 16 or 18 gauge thickness. Does that create a problem? Does 18 gauge repair panel fall in the 24-gauge to 5/16" range of the welder?

 

[Mikey]

Replace the panels. I agree patching is a pain with all the small cuts and welds - it may be cheaper but if it is more than one or two small areas it will take forever. I also learned the hard way and patched up one side of my rear inner quarter - now I am thinking of cutting it all out and putting in new inner quarters and wheel wells instead of patching them. Effort lost on my part but chalk it up to a learning experience.

Mikey (or anyone else) - how did you approach the inner quarters?

Well, first, buy the panel so you know what to cut out. I did the panel, wells and the squares in front of and behind all at once. On the side with the tanks, I also had the puzzle of the sheet metal covering the fuel necks.

I used a air chisel and popped the spot welds out and used a cutting wheel to slice the top out. I used a bunch of various sized clamps and vice-grips to pre-assemble the puzzle of metal. Then, tack weld the pieces, ball-peen hammerd stuff as needed to fit. Go slow and careful. Then, weld stitch welds about 2-4 inches long all around and keep doing this until it's all seams are fully welded. Try not to blaze a long weld trail or you'll warp the metal. Then, I finished the seams with a combination of POR-15 and regular body sealer. In key areas, I sprayed under coating to reduce noise.

When cutting out the metal, ensure you cut well within the size of your replacement panels. Feel free to save good stock metal and cut your replacement panel if that makes sense. You will also want some plain flat stock metal to make custom sections, too.

I'm building mine as a kick around truck, not a show truck so mine is all about functionality with an eye on looks. My Cougar is the show car, not the Bronco. Although, when the time comes, the exterior rear quarters will need the help of someone who knows body work as you just can't carpet the exterior, darn it!

Next project will be to creatively repair door posts. Groan!

Good luck!

 

[Mark]

Thanks again everyone. Does anyone know about the body bracing issue the guy at the shop referred to? If I cut out the rear bed am I going to bend or damage the rear body panels due to stress? If so what will I need to do to support the body during the repair?

There are support channels under the body, don't cut through those. They are structural and will be what you weld new panels to. If you're talking about the bed area, You can simply tac weld a length of steel across the top of the bed rails to help support it.

Trailpsycho, I have an angle grinder already. If I use that to cut out the bad panels would I still need a compressor? I've always sort of wanted one but I couldn't justify it just to maintain the air pressure in the tires before.

An angle grinder is all you need to cut the panels out and grind down the old spot welds. It's all I use.

Oh, and one more thing for now. I'm looking through my Northern Tools catalog and the MIG welders in there say things like "can weld 24-gauge up to 5/16" metal". I know most of the replacement panels from the vendors come in 16 or 18 gauge thickness. Does that create a problem? Does 18 gauge repair panel fall in the 24-gauge to 5/16" range of the welder?

Sounds like a decent beginning 220V welder. 18 guage is thicker than 24 guage, so yes, it falls into range. I recommend plug welding floor panels, in which case the welder you mention would work well, if you stitch weld patches, this one should work as well.

 

[deltarat]

Buy the welder and do it yourself as so many of us have. You will need it later for other projects anyway. The floors are a good place to learn. They are easy and they will be covered with Linex anyway to cover small blemishes. I never used a mig or welded sheet metal until a few months ago and now I am welding in fender patch panels.

 

[jkransbottom]

OK, I've weighed the advice and I've decided to replace the floor pans myself. I've purchased a MIG welder http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200328799_200328799 and mask and now I have some questions. This unit can weld with or without shielding gas (Argon/CO2 mixture). Which is preferable - gas or no gas? If with gas, what size cylinder should I get - #2, #3 or #4?

And lastly, what order should I replace the pans in? I've determined that I need to replace the driver side cowl too while I'm at it, so should I start with that?

Thanks again everyone for your continued help and support.

Joel