Singh Grooved Heads - Anybody ever try it?

[EricLar80]

I was looking online today about quench distance and other things related and ran across Signh grooves. Has anyone ever tried putting them on their heads?

Basically, they put grooves in the head where squish occurs - supposed to cure everything but diabetes, it seems. Take a look at the following links, I found it interesting, anyway:

http://www.herningg.com/singh/
http://www.herningg.com/singh/Engine Running Tests Analysis.pdf

Here is a thread by a guy who builds engines and is really keen on the idea (long thread):
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/singhs-grooves-ported-milled-vortec-heads-stock-350-a-102958.html

An example of a Singh Grooved head:

I have ran across a few sites where people are swearing by them to fix pinging issues, mostly on the hyper-mileage sites. Seems a little like 'snake oil', but I haven't seen any complaints from people who have tried it (maybe they are to prideful to say they messed up??)...

Eric

 

[broncnaz]

Lots of info didnt read every bit of it but I really dont see any eye opening data that would lead me to believe its good or bad. Most of the data that showed any power increase was at low engine loads. It might work good in a car but i dont see it working good in a bronco other than maybe for emissions purposes. While it doesnt really seem to help or hurt and many people seem to believe it reduces detonation but one thing I gleaned out of it is they are really concentrating on quench clearances as well so to me that is where most of the benefits are coming from. there are so many factors involved in the concept that it would take a lot of testing to ensure it helped in any one engine combo. Change heads design or pistons and it all goes out the window.
Who knows it may actually work. but I dont see enough that would make me want to do it.

 

[DirtDonk]

I've always been interested in combustion chamber design as a solution to a lot of the world's ills, but haven't seen this one yet. I'll go check out the links, but from what you've seen are they doing it to all brands? Or have the tests been limited to just one or two brand heads?

Paul

 

[EricLar80]

I've always been interested in combustion chamber design as a solution to a lot of the world's ills, but haven't seen this one yet. I'll go check out the links, but from what you've seen are they doing it to all brands? Or have the tests been limited to just one or two brand heads?

Paul

Pretty much anything with a squish type head (so no hemis). I have seen a few big block muscle cars running fast ET's, many Geo Metros and some motorcycles.

You can definitely see a difference in how the flame front hits more parts of the cylinder, but I am too much of a novice to know whether that is a good or bad thing. ?:? I think I would be willing to try it if I was having the issues it claims to solve. I think you need to be careful to not create hot spots with the sharp features, but maybe the heads stay cool enough to prevent that due to the water jackets.

A lot of arguments against it seem to revolve around 'why haven't the big guys bought into the technology?'; if I had to guess, it has to do with royalties (the guys has patents) and there not being enough of a benefit to justify them.

I would agree with Broncnaz that the detonation could have been fixed with more attention to squish as well as cleaning of the combustion chambers when this is done. It either needs a controlled study, or more people to just try it out to gain confidence.

Here are the patents:
http://www.google.com/patents?q=US+Patent+6237579&btnG=Search+Patents

Eric

Eric

 

[broncnaz]

Might be a patent issue but the data that supports any real benefits is just not there(at least from my understandng of it) especailly for the big automotive companies. Also with the racing industry not doing it or anything similar would also lead a person to believe its of no real value.
Maybe if you have a combustion chamber/piston setup that is detonation prone it might be a fix but usually companies will come out with either a new piston or cylinder head design that fixes the issue. Hard to say I also see that with long term use those grooves are very likely to fill up with carbon as well.
Probably a cheap and easy mod but how would you really ever know if you had the groove right or even enough grooves would take a lot more testing and hard data to convince me to do it on any particular setup.

 

[t120r]

There used to be a great website called www.mpgresearch.com. I was a member there. There was a ton of info there on the grooves. There is also a few discussions on www.speedtalk.com. The grooves are not used for power increases. They are used to 'help' avoid detonation. I have them in my Edelbrock Harley Sportster heads and soon putting them in my new FRPP SCJ heads for a 429 I'm building.

 

[EricLar80]

There used to be a great website called www.mpgresearch.com. I was a member there. There was a ton of info there on the grooves. There is also a few discussions on www.speedtalk.com. The grooves are not used for power increases. They are used to 'help' avoid detonation. I have them in my Edelbrock Harley Sportster heads and soon putting them in my new FRPP SCJ heads for a 429 I'm building.

Have you noticed that it helps with detonation? Any before/after testimony?

Eric

 

[t120r]

We'll I just installed the heads on my bike. It's in Newfoundland, Canada, so testing won't happen until this spring. I have helped guys with their grooves and ridden in their machines. I believe in them enough that my 11.2:1 429 is designed with pump gas in mind. I have carefully designed this engine for this purpose though.

 

[mcdobson]

I am not familiar with this process either but looking at that picture, it looks like it created four new hot spots for pre-detonation to begin.

 

[EricLar80]

I am not familiar with this process either but looking at that picture, it looks like it created four new hot spots for pre-detonation to begin.

That's what you would think, but just like squish/quench prevents hot spots, it probably focuses on those areas as well since you have turbulence going thru those grooves. Or, at least that's I am inferring from the testing results.

Eric

 

[73azbronco]

next, someone will invent a magnetic fuel milage improver...

Not sold on this. Your spark plug volume has more effect than these two stripes.

 

[Thunder26]

next, someone will invent a magnetic fuel milage improver...

Not sold on this. Your spark plug volume has more effect than these two stripes.

Doesn't work on the principle of volume it works theoretically by increasing turbulence which in turn makes the combustion process faster preventing detonation. With that said I don't believe it will help because you've now created a nice place for hot spots and carbon build up. Also after reading I'm perplexed on how more squish doesn't help it would force more of the mixture into the chamber faster which would be a good thing. Am I right?

 

[EricLar80]

next, someone will invent a magnetic fuel milage improver...

I've got one of those. I'll sell it to you, cheap! ;D (Results may vary...)

Eric

 

[73azbronco]

Increase turbulance, maybe, increase chance of fracturing your head or block? Definately.

 

[Thunder26]

Cracking your head yes but why would it increase the chances of cracking your block?

 

[t120r]

I know many people who've used the grooves. No one has cracked a head. Different designed grooves can clog up though. The design that works the best is a 1/16 x 1/16 channel. Then blend and smooth it to 1/8 x 1/8. That will eliminate the chance of the groove itself becoming a hot spot.

 

[bmc69]

An interesting concept. Anything that potentially reduces pre-detonation tendencies in a high compression engine is worth looking at in my opinion.

 

[t120r]

It's a great TOOL. Not a be all end all. Don't expect to grab a set of heads, cut some grooves and run 13:1 on 87 octane.;D But some nicely prepped heads, pistons and matching cam... Well running 11:1 shouldn't be an issue.

 

[broncnaz]

I think it would be a option to try if you built a engine and had detonation issues. There are many combustion chamber designs, piston designs that effectively do the same thing. but again in some cases they are doing more than just cutting grooves in the heads they are setting the quench height as well. Lots of factors involved to think about before just cutting grooves.

 

[t120r]

With the grooves you actually need an increased quench height. Somewhere around the 0.060" area. That goes against the traditional theory of close as you can get it. For now my 429 is on hold till I figure out my rearend vibration problem, but once I get that straightened up I will bolt it together and post results. BTW: The 429 is going in a ranger, not my EB.