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the triangulated 4 link thread reminded me about this

ntsqd

heratic car camper
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Jan 30, 2005
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I started to post this in that thread and then I thought it might hijack it, so it gets it's own thread.

In the late 90's Coby Hughey (some of you may remember him) wanted to design a radius arm that attached like how the current SD radius arms (& others like Jim's and Duff's) attach, with an upper and lower round rubber or urethane bushing. Make the top links attach to the lower links part-way back and make one of them rigid (or actually adjustable for Caster) while the other could change length dynamically or be locked at some specific length. His idea, and I doubt that he was the first to think of it, was a hydraulic ram with a valve in the plumbing that ran end to end. Open the valve and fluid flows back and forth basically taking that link out of the system. Now you've got the front 3 link mentioned in the triangulated thread. Close the valve and it acts like the solid link on the other side.

A tidy, simple idea that won't work.
There's always just a little air in the system so there's just a little bit of change in length of the locked cylinder that will be possible. That may be OK in practical use, but is isn't the idea killer. The killer is that a hydraulic cylinder's shaft displaces some volume of fluid, so the total volume of the cylinder as it extends and compresses isn't static. In a perfect world if you did manage to get all of the air out it couldn't move even with the valve open. This is because of the fluid displaced by the shaft and the fixed volume of fluid. Since no seal is perfect I think that it would move a little, but not far enough to be useful or fast enough to be useful.
All sorts of different gambits were considered to address this. If you pressurize the whole thing (say from the PS system) then it will have just a little bit to extension bias due to the small difference in piston areas.

The idea that I liked the most, and disliked the most at the same time was to put an accumulator in that plumbing. That can allow for the difference in fluid volume as the cylinder extends and compresses. Putting a valve between the accumulator and everything else would hydraulically lock the cylinder. When the valve is open the accumulator and valve would/could have a mild damping effect on the length change of the cylinder (particularly if the valve's cv is small), which could b a good thing.
But think of the complexity that this system now has! It's no longer tidy and simple.

The other thought was a thru-rod cylinder. At the time of discussion F1 cars had *just* started using dampers built that way and "hyrdo-steering" really wasn't a thing, yet. Finding a hyd cyl built that way would tough at best (at the time) and likely impossible (then). Making something like that could get expensive. but it would give you the means to address just how you're going to mount such a thing on a radius arm.

At about this point in the discussion it came to light that not everyone with a wristed arm was pinning them for street driving and the WAH came along with no method to pin it at all. Which made the whole thing a great thought exercise, but not of much use.
 

Yeller

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I’d forgotten about Coby. Made me make a trip down memory lane.

About that same time I built several similar systems, even got in on a major (at the time) parts builder for heeps using radius arms as a bolt in’s R&D. I gave up on it after the first super low (for its time)1 ton swap I did. We used it in as part of our keeping it low thoughts and packaging, lower CG would perform better, which proved to be true, but we quickly found its limitations. We found it worked fantastic pointed up hill. As soon as it pointed down it handled weird, and wanted to drive over the side with the solid arm under braking causing a couple of roll overs. Then we did a high speed race, every time the brakes were applied hard the side with the solid arm would force that side to full extension creating some real excitement, especially sliding into a turn. We removed the solid link and moved it to the frame, still helped with our packaging and it solved the handling issues. Have never looked back. Other than a couple of lift kits on broncos, that was the last time I did anything with radius arms.
 
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ntsqd

ntsqd

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Messages
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I think that the math behind making a three link out of a radius arm basically says that the axle still travels in a curve, it's just that the effective length of the radius arm is HUGE. And likely slightly varying in length depending on where in the travel path because linkages like that don't generate constant radius travel path curves. The result of that really long "radius arm" is where it puts the effective pivot point relative to the CG of the vehicle. I recall digging into this a number of years ago, but I'm not recalling the details. Most of the consumer books on handling of road cars don't ever deal with this type of suspension. Which leaves "flipping around" what is written for 3 and 4 link live axle rear suspensions and re-labeling "Anti-squat" as "anti-dive"

Tangentially in the very late 90's I rode a full suspension MTB down Mert Lawwill's driveway at his direction. Actually I rode two different bikes down that steep Tiburon driveway. One was a stock Schwinn Straight 8 that had the rear brake caliper mounted on the rear suspension. The other, a Straight 6 but modified, had it mounted on a short arm that could freely pivot around the rear axle and had a SRE jointed link that ran up to a boss on the frame. The length of that link and the placement of the boss were very carefully determined to make the resulting 4 bar linkage a true parallelogram.
The driveway was made of flat, nearly square slabs with a 1" piece of wood between them. Each one of those joints was a small bump. The 'normal' bike essentially locked out the rear suspension under braking and you could feel every one of those bumps (it wasn't a short driveway!). The bike with the linked caliper went over those bumps with full compliance and the bumps were almost unnoticeable.
I mention this because I think that the 'tucking' of your rigid arm under braking and that locked-out rear suspension are symptoms of the same physics.

This'll teach Brian to go on a vacation, he's going to have a lot of catch-up reading to do!
 

Yeller

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I think that the math behind making a three link out of a radius arm basically says that the axle still travels in a curve, it's just that the effective length of the radius arm is HUGE. And likely slightly varying in length depending on where in the travel path because linkages like that don't generate constant radius travel path curves. The result of that really long "radius arm" is where it puts the effective pivot point relative to the CG of the vehicle. I recall digging into this a number of years ago, but I'm not recalling the details. Most of the consumer books on handling of road cars don't ever deal with this type of suspension. Which leaves "flipping around" what is written for 3 and 4 link live axle rear suspensions and re-labeling "Anti-squat" as "anti-dive"

Tangentially in the very late 90's I rode a full suspension MTB down Mert Lawwill's driveway at his direction. Actually I rode two different bikes down that steep Tiburon driveway. One was a stock Schwinn Straight 8 that had the rear brake caliper mounted on the rear suspension. The other, a Straight 6 but modified, had it mounted on a short arm that could freely pivot around the rear axle and had a SRE jointed link that ran up to a boss on the frame. The length of that link and the placement of the boss were very carefully determined to make the resulting 4 bar linkage a true parallelogram.
The driveway was made of flat, nearly square slabs with a 1" piece of wood between them. Each one of those joints was a small bump. The 'normal' bike essentially locked out the rear suspension under braking and you could feel every one of those bumps (it wasn't a short driveway!). The bike with the linked caliper went over those bumps with full compliance and the bumps were almost unnoticeable.
I mention this because I think that the 'tucking' of your rigid arm under braking and that locked-out rear suspension are symptoms of the same physics.

This'll teach Brian to go on a vacation, he's going to have a lot of catch-up reading to do!
TS, you are right on track.

Under braking the front radius arm got stiff, which makes sense you add in the dynamic loads generated by the brakes. By mounting that upper anti rotation arm to the frame it controls the torque dynamics and allows the suspension to stay compliant rather than over riding it. You can also play with the length and mounting location on the frame to use those dynamics to your advantage.

Was really weird watching that old CJ sliding into a hot left turn with the right front trying to crawl underneath at full extension. Was all good till it pulled the shock apart, luckily the brake line broke about the time the driveshaft broke and came back down before it yard saled over the front axle 😱 it was headed there.

Dual radius arms behave the same way, just at a lower level because it is spread out over 2 of them. The one on the jeep was pretty short, amplifying its affect on the dynamics.

Brian is sure missing out lol @nvrstuk has a lot of catching up to to do🤣
 

bigmuddy

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I started to post this in that thread and then I thought it might hijack it, so it gets it's own thread.

In the late 90's Coby Hughey (some of you may remember him) wanted to design a radius arm that attached like how the current SD radius arms (& others like Jim's and Duff's) attach, with an upper and lower round rubber or urethane bushing. Make the top links attach to the lower links part-way back and make one of them rigid (or actually adjustable for Caster) while the other could change length dynamically or be locked at some specific length. His idea, and I doubt that he was the first to think of it, was a hydraulic ram with a valve in the plumbing that ran end to end. Open the valve and fluid flows back and forth basically taking that link out of the system. Now you've got the front 3 link mentioned in the triangulated thread. Close the valve and it acts like the solid link on the other side.

A tidy, simple idea that won't work.
There's always just a little air in the system so there's just a little bit of change in length of the locked cylinder that will be possible. That may be OK in practical use, but is isn't the idea killer. The killer is that a hydraulic cylinder's shaft displaces some volume of fluid, so the total volume of the cylinder as it extends and compresses isn't static. In a perfect world if you did manage to get all of the air out it couldn't move even with the valve open. This is because of the fluid displaced by the shaft and the fixed volume of fluid. Since no seal is perfect I think that it would move a little, but not far enough to be useful or fast enough to be useful.
All sorts of different gambits were considered to address this. If you pressurize the whole thing (say from the PS system) then it will have just a little bit to extension bias due to the small difference in piston areas.

The idea that I liked the most, and disliked the most at the same time was to put an accumulator in that plumbing. That can allow for the difference in fluid volume as the cylinder extends and compresses. Putting a valve between the accumulator and everything else would hydraulically lock the cylinder. When the valve is open the accumulator and valve would/could have a mild damping effect on the length change of the cylinder (particularly if the valve's cv is small), which could b a good thing.
But think of the complexity that this system now has! It's no longer tidy and simple.

The other thought was a thru-rod cylinder. At the time of discussion F1 cars had *just* started using dampers built that way and "hyrdo-steering" really wasn't a thing, yet. Finding a hyd cyl built that way would tough at best (at the time) and likely impossible (then). Making something like that could get expensive. but it would give you the means to address just how you're going to mount such a thing on a radius arm.

At about this point in the discussion it came to light that not everyone with a wristed arm was pinning them for street driving and the WAH came along with no method to pin it at all. Which made the whole thing a great thought exercise, but not of much use.
Didn't Chuck a BCB make the version for sale that was adjustable but didn't include the hydraulics?
 
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ntsqd

ntsqd

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BCB, afaik, only made (makes?) the WAH ("Wristed Axle Housing").

If you really want to know about Hughey, it was talked about here and on the Colorado forum. I'd rather not rehash it here.
 

nvrstuk

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The design that BCB makes was originally designed by a nice CB member who is a neighbor to our North. :)

Like TS said... let's keep it all off this thread...
 
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ntsqd

ntsqd

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BCB's design for the WAH is slightly different than the pioneer's design. That said, were there a patent involved I doubt it would survive an infringement lawsuit.
I agree, he is a talented and nice guy.
 

bigmuddy

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BCB's design for the WAH is slightly different than the pioneer's design. That said, were there a patent involved I doubt it would survive an infringement lawsuit.
I agree, he is a talented and nice guy.
Pretty well versed on most of the arm stuff and what I could read years ago on Hughey.
I was just curious if he was still around?

Kinda miss the story of the days of the black cloud!
 

nvrstuk

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BCB's design for the WAH is slightly different than the pioneer's design. That said, were there a patent involved I doubt it would survive an infringement lawsuit.
I agree, he is a talented and nice guy.
Yup... seen them both...
 
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ntsqd

ntsqd

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I looked at my pics of our friend's Bronco, but none of them show his torsion-free axle housing very well.
 

toddz69

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Pretty well versed on most of the arm stuff and what I could read years ago on Hughey.
I was just curious if he was still around?

I just saw a FB post by him a few days ago so he's still around.

Todd Z.
 
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