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Turn on heater - instrument cluster lights go out

bannind

Sr. Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2005
Messages
612
Driving to work this morning and had a weird occurrence.

1967
Headlights on, cluster illuminated. Turned on my heater, recently upgraded to the chevy motor, and the instrument cluster lights went out. The heater continued to work. The other gauges on the cluster continued to work. The turn signals continued to function and signal within the instrument cluster. It was just the lights that illuminate the cluster went out.

I believe that everything is sufficiently grounded, so I have no idea where to start. If it was a ground to the instrument cluster, I would have suspected my fuel gauge would no longer be functioning, since that works off the same cluster ground (i think).

Suggestions on where to start on this gremlin?
 

Steve83

Bronco Guru
Joined
Jul 16, 2003
Messages
9,134
Loc.
Memphis, TN, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Tell us more about the truck. Exactly what parts are stock, which are modified, which are modern direct replacements, which are aftermarket (upgrade) replacements, which are damaged/repaired... When did this symptom appear? Immediately after changing the blower motor?

No, the fuel gauge grounds through the fuel level sender.
 
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bannind

bannind

Sr. Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2005
Messages
612
1967 EB

Everything is stock other than the blower motor and wiper switch.

She only gets driven a few miles every day and mostly in the daylight, so I can't be certain this wasn't occurring before the heater upgrade. If I need to run another ground to the instrument cluster, I can do that as a 'precautionary' measure. Are the instrument cluster lights grounded via the instrument cluster housing?
 

69red

Jr. Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2004
Messages
239
Loc.
Cochrane, AB,CAN
sounds like a bad ground.

do you have a ground from the fender to your battery? I added a 8ga wire from the base of the starter relay back to the -ve battery post terminal. it solved many weird electrical issues.
 

englewoodcowboy

Lick Creek Restorations
Joined
Jul 25, 2010
Messages
4,200
That is the classic symptoms of a bad ground. When the heater is off, your light circuit is finding ground through that switch, when you turn it on, the ground goes away as the circuit becomes active and your lights, no longer have their source of ground. I would start by tracing your light circuit, make sure it goes to ground and test your ground. I believe the lights ground to the dash at some point then you have to have a jumper from the dash to the tub and then to the chassis etc. Bad grounds are a bitch but if you have a Power Probe or can borrow one it will make finding the fault much faster and easier. I bought one just for that purpose and it has become invaluable.
 
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bannind

bannind

Sr. Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2005
Messages
612
It is simply weird because my battery is located in the back of the bed passenger side. negative terminal is connected via a 3 foot 0 gauge cable to a mounting point on the top of frame. The entire cage of the bronco is welded into the frame at 8 different points with no rubber isolator pads (so the body is in good contact with the frame in multiple locations). Where do I need to run another ground to on the instrument cluster? To be on the safe side I will run it all the way to the frame.
 
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bannind

bannind

Sr. Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2005
Messages
612
I have checked the fuse box and I am not getting juice into fuse #3 with the light switch activated. Does that call for a replacement light switch or is there another fuse in the chain that I need to check?
 

Steve83

Bronco Guru
Joined
Jul 16, 2003
Messages
9,134
Loc.
Memphis, TN, USA, Earth, Milky Way
If the cage simply passes through the body, then it may NOT be grounding properly. We still need more details. Pics would help, too. Yes, you should add a substantial (but not crazy - 10ga is plenty) ground from the battery to the body, and continue it to the engine & alternator without cutting (just fold the wire & solder ring terminals on).

 

DirtDonk

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Messages
49,483
...Everything is stock other than the blower motor and wiper switch.

I'm going to go out on a limb here bannind and say that this is a false statement.
See below...;D


If I need to run another ground to the instrument cluster, I can do that as a 'precautionary' measure. Are the instrument cluster lights grounded via the instrument cluster housing?

Yes, the stock lights ground to the cluster housing through their little metal tabs/fingers that hold the lights into the housing. These are notoriously weak after this many years, so all the aftermarket replacement harnesses utilize separate ground circuits that bypass the socket entirely.

It's never a bad idea with an EB to run a jumper/ground wire from the little screw that holds the instrument voltage regulator (IVR) to the back of the housing. There are pictures hereabouts showing what this is, if you're not familiar with it. But it's also visible as being the only thing that is connected to all three gauges that use a sending unit (temp, press, and fuel).

Might as well inspect for rust on the housing surface, as well as for loose/weak connections between those tabs and the housing.


It is simply weird because my battery is located in the back of the bed passenger side. negative terminal is connected via a 3 foot 0 gauge cable to a mounting point on the top of frame.

This is most definitely NOT stock, so your wiring harness has been at least minimally invaded by the PO's of your truck (unless you did this conversion?) because the battery was originally in the passenger front corner of the engine compartment. You might know that already of course, but that was by way of stating the obvious that your wiring has been messed with.
The 0ga cable is great, but should run all the way to the engine for the best performance. However, if enough other grounds have been added things might be ok in that regard.
So where is the main engine ground? Are there any visible body grounds other than the metal-to-metal contact areas?


The entire cage of the bronco is welded into the frame at 8 different points with no rubber isolator pads (so the body is in good contact with the frame in multiple locations).

In general, what you say is correct, but age and rust and other factors of welding two pieces of metal together do not always amount to good grounding. What about paint? Is there paint on the body between the areas where the feet of the cage are bolted? Or is the cage welded to the body too? Should be bolted at least, and any welding would be strictly supplemental for attaching a body.
I would add ground straps in several places at the very least.


Where do I need to run another ground to on the instrument cluster? To be on the safe side I will run it all the way to the frame.

You should be able to run from the screw I mentioned earlier, to the body as long as you get the body bonded/grounded to the frame/battery better. No need to run it all the way to the frame, because I think you should ground the body to the frame in some different areas.
But don't let me talk you out of that completely, since making the extra effort to run ground wires and straps to the frame is not a bad thing. You just need to add some more connections to different spots on the frame and body to make it all work.
In my opinion anyway.

By the way, again, did you do this battery move or was it already done when you bought the Bronco?
If you have not already, remove the ground cable and clean/wire brush/etc the area around the bolt/stud or whatever is used to attach it to the frame.
Then do the same with the main engine ground up front.
If you're going to leave the frame as the main component in the grounding circuit, I would definitely add multiple jumpers to multiple parts of the body and cage. It's just cheap insurance...
You can use wire and eyelets you make yourself, or you can purchase some of the pre-made braided strap types that are sold at just about every auto parts store around. Use them to jumper/bypass the body mount locations between the frame, cage and body, in several locations from front to back. You don't have to do this to every spot of course, but don't rely on just one or two at one end of the truck. What we're fighting here is that after over 40 years of living together peacefully, the body panels are not in good contact with each other like they were when new. And this includes even those that are spot welded together.
A perfect example of this is the many stories about the front radiator core supports that are no longer grounded to the rest of the body. This makes the headlights dim and the turn signals work erratically. Even though those panels are spot welded together.


I have checked the fuse box and I am not getting juice into fuse #3 with the light switch activated. Does that call for a replacement light switch or is there another fuse in the chain that I need to check?

Should not be any secondary fuse in any of the stock circuits. Did you check for power there while spinning the headlight switch knob around? It might be a faulty rheostat in the switch, or it could be a loose wire or something like that.
What's the back of the fuse box look like? Is it clean, or all rusty and nasty?

Got pics of this rig of yours? Love to see under the hood and maybe even under the dash a bit to see what else might have been done to the wiring.

Thanks. And good luck.

Paul
 

Steve83

Bronco Guru
Joined
Jul 16, 2003
Messages
9,134
Loc.
Memphis, TN, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Good catch, Paul. I totally missed this: :-[
Everything is stock other than the blower motor and wiper switch.
%)
...battery is located in the back of the bed passenger side. negative terminal is connected via a 3 foot 0 gauge cable to a mounting point on the top of frame. The entire cage...
NONE of that is "stock".



So let's try again with a COMPLETE list of mods...
 

englewoodcowboy

Lick Creek Restorations
Joined
Jul 25, 2010
Messages
4,200
I would start by looking at grounds around and near the blower motor being you or someone was recently under the dash, your culprit is probably a wire tugged loose that you are unaware of...
 
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bannind

bannind

Sr. Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2005
Messages
612
Paul - you are correct.

When I was stating 'everything is stock' that was solely in reference to the dash components and gauges.

Backstory on this rig
The PO, my brother, was located in 29 Palms for several years(2001-2005) and decided that he wanted to turn his Bronco into a SCORE racer. WCB did all the work; 20k later and he has a Bronco that was setup for running through the desert at stupid speeds, but wasn't designed for running as a daily driver. WCB did a lot of work correctly, but I think they were in a hurry to complete certain areas of the work because there are several things that weren't very well thought out. Not a bash on WCB, but I do think they saw a person with a ton of hazard pay burning a hole in his pocket. They steered him down the most expensive path, not the path that was best suited for him.

The battery relocation, cage, front core removal/tubular front end creation and pre-runner fenders are all compliments of the previous work that was done by WCB.

The Bronco went into storage for 6 years until it was offered to me, if I wanted to spend the money and time to fix the issues and transition it back to a daily driver, with the intention of being handed down to my son when he hits driving age.

Mod's I know about.
Rebuilt 289 with RV cam
MSD ignition
Stonecrusher Steering
4x4x2 power steering box (I think - WCB conversion)
Hooker headers(I think) 2 into 1 exhaust
Long travel tubular radius arms.
Adjustable coil bucket towers from ChassisUnlimited (I did this as the first step in making it back into a daily driver - I had to remove and replace the coilovers that were installed but would have required rebuild and significant expense to utilize)
3speed with hurst shifter and big ass hole in floor because someone didn't take the time to cut it correctly.
Inner core completely gone and replaced with custom fabbed tubing front support
pre-runner front fenders
Custom 8 point cage that is supported through the body by 4 grade 8 bolts at each mounting point. Under body cage supports are welded to the frame.
After market seats, not sure of the brand. (I have a pair of Beard seats that were in the rig, but they have to be reupholstered)
Stock rear bumper
a hodgepodge front bumper.
Clear coat on the paint is peeling like expected after sitting for 5 years.

The wiring behind the dash is what is expected for a 48 year old rig. I hesitate to really start tearing into it, because I don't want to create new problems that I have to address. Right now it is just the cluster lights not working and I can work around that. An entire rewire will be on the project plan, but that is several projects deep and the budget only goes so far each month.

I should post up a ton of pics, because there are several different problem areas that have to be addressed as a daily driver - that weren't a concern for a racing truck.
 

Steve83

Bronco Guru
Joined
Jul 16, 2003
Messages
9,134
Loc.
Memphis, TN, USA, Earth, Milky Way
That's MUCH better. It gives us a better understanding of what might be contributing to the truck's issues.

The cage being bolted to the body is not a reliable ground path, and neither are the fenders. Add wire from the battery (-) post as continuously as possible to the body, frame, engine, & core support (whatever the front lights are grounded to). I'd go UNDER the body to hit each of those things so there are fewer penetrations to abrade or pinch.
 
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bannind

bannind

Sr. Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2005
Messages
612
Here are a few pics of the beast in question.

The engine runs like a scalded cat. Starts on the first turn and no issues at all, other than her desire to leave an oil spot every where we stop. The cage is monster, though I did remove the 2 bars in the center of the windshield so I could see the road better and the roll bar seat mounts (I am quite a bit taller than my brother and had to lower the seats to a reasonable level). One project I have managed to complete is adding the hood shocks. without having the stock mounting locations, it required creativity, but I finally got one thing done.

And forgot to add that I replaced the vacuum booster WCB installed with a hydroboost. And a Chevy disc brake conversion from WCB as originally installed back in 2004.

I will add extra grounding tonight after work and report back in case people later search on this topic.

The next big project will be figuring out how to protect the engine from snow and rain. Without the inner fenders or stock core support - I believe this is going to be some fun engineering. I will start a separate thread on that one though.
 

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bannind

bannind

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Mar 24, 2005
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612
The only problem with those becomes how to mount them. There is no support from the hoop that is over the shocks to the support that the outer fenders mount too. If the material isn't too heavy, I could go from inner hoop to outer hoop without sag, but if it has much weight to it - I am going to have to run some temp supports.
 

Steve83

Bronco Guru
Joined
Jul 16, 2003
Messages
9,134
Loc.
Memphis, TN, USA, Earth, Milky Way
It's very light & rigid, so it's self-supporting. But fabbing an extra structure for it would be easy, cheap, & quick. The stuff in those pics came from a sign shop - I ordered the same material used for making plastic license plates for car dealer advertising. But I found some other sources later: a race shop which sold rolls of "body" material, and a hardware store selling precut supports for leaf bags. If you decide to do this, and can't find material locally, e-mail me.
 
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bannind

bannind

Sr. Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2005
Messages
612
just closing this thread off.

I added 2 extra heavy grounds from the battery (located passenger side back of bed).
1 - from battery to bed
1 - from battery to roll cage.
I also removed, cleaned and reconnected the current 0 gauge that ties into the frame.

I then added a extra grounding strap from the frame to the bed in front of rig.
I added 2 straps, one each side, from the cage/body junction to the dash. (I had a stash of grounding straps that I kinda went overboard on).

Nothing worked for the original problem, though I am sure I pretty sure the extra grounding will help in the future.

I then reached underneath the dash and pushed around the connection at the light switch. after moving it around and testing it a few times - the instrument cluster lights came back on. I am chalking this up to the 48 year old wiring block at the light switch. I don't want to tear into the wiring yet, because I am sure it is a cluster **ck waiting to fall apart. That will be another battle for another day.

Thanks again to everyone for the suggestions.
 
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