NORRA class and rules

[markw]

Heck yea I'd love to meet up with you when you come to town sometime. I'm pretty sure the rules will be finalized this year and unlikely to change. To do so would be extremely unfair and would really discourage people from diving in. These rules are pretty detailed and once some of the questions posed above are clarified and NORRA approved you'll be able to proceed with confidence.

 

[DelDiablo]

Andrew, your thoughts are right in line with mine regarding Pioneer. Rigs like mine and BJs really don't belong there, nor does Chris with his engine. Ideally it would be a truck like Chris's with a 302 block. Big axles, multiple high dollar shocks, long springs, fuel injection, electronic ignition, 35" tires, etc. should be in Legends. However, until NORRA makes those changes, here we are.
Regarding the Duffs radius arms creating an advantage. The only performance advantage might be a sharper turning radius with big tires. Not really an advantage in desert racing unless you're stuck between rocks or something. However, they are significantly stronger which I see as a safety advantage. If a no bend arm is the goal I would have a stock length, straight arm built. However, since the NORRA saw fit to allow those Duffs arms this year I will run them next year. If they are outlawed I will stay in Legends and race against Boyd who will either join us there or revert to stock arms and stay in Pioneer with all of his other trick parts.
Now, I don't think it will work to make a bunch of big rule changes for Pioneer for 2020. If the goal is a more nostalgia, "everyman" class it needs to have very clear rules and be promoted for a couple of years to allow people to plan and build their racers. Pretty clear I think that's the way to go in the long run. In the short run we need to get together and clarify the existing rules so we don't have another donnybrook at contingency.

Hey Mark. Where exactly are you coming from? "Ideally it would be a truck like Chris's with a 302 block" you do know that that is exactly what my truck is right? Also his cage and suspension is exactly the same as mine. Chris is smart, he emulated a winning package and came down with a truck that was quick right out of the box. I ran stock radius arms for 9 years before we tried the Duffs, they didn't make us faster... I'll sell you the Duff's cheap if you'd like, they are a really nice piece of gear. Perhaps your 1.5 appearances in NORRA aren't enough for you to be an expert quite yet. So until you have a truck that is pioneer legal stay in your lane and go debate legends rules somewhere.

 

[DelDiablo]

Boyd Jaynes here, it seems we weren't invited to the party but nevertheless I’m here, better late than never I guess. I’m sure my racing partner Brian Godfrey will have his own .02 cents to add as well.

I bought my Bronco on Craigslist in 2008 specifically to race NORRA. It isn’t a Stroppe, it never raced, and it wasn’t frame off restored before we started racing it. I spent every dime I had to make it to the startline every spring. Even if I had trouble paying my rent I would still enter the MEX1K. After 10 years of racing at NORRA I have invested not only my hard-earned money but also vast amounts of time into how to make our truck better…, WITHIN THE RULES. I didn’t ask for the rules to be changed when I couldn’t figure something out…, and when the rules did change (2.5” to 2.0” shocks) we made the change at considerable expense in order to remain in the class for which our truck was designed. It took countless mistakes, a couple of years of being dead last guy in the field before we started to figure it out. We read the rules and built a truck based on them and were always considerate of the way they raced back in the day. We didn’t have a wealth of Bronco or vintage racing knowledge to fall back on, I didn’t even own 3 wrenches when I bought my Bronco, but I was eager to figure things out. Now, while everyone wants to talk about the spirit of NORRA, this conversation, a discussion about what should and shouldn’t be allowed, on an online chat room... is really NOT the spirit of NORRA. If you think a rule change is in order because after a couple of races you didn’t get the results you wanted, then perhaps competitive sports isn’t for you. How about come back next year smarter, better prepared and try again. The rules that have been in place for pioneer for ten years are pretty fair, definitely need some clarification in areas, but pretty reasonable. I for one don’t want to be forced to race in another class (with vehicles that are more modified) because all of a sudden the rules aren’t working out for some people. Apparently a lot of the rumbling in regards to what is “fair” and what isn’t, comes from the other Pioneer era classes. Where do we draw the line in the quest to “level the playing field”? Where does the definition of “stock” & “vintage” intersect with what is known to be period correct, the availability of old parts and what is safe? I don’t envy Chris Wilson who has a tough job listening to what seems to be a sudden avalanche of whining from racers as he attempts to hone the rules a little better. It isn’t just in Pioneer either, it’s merely a sign that the happiest race on earth… is also an ACTUAL f’n race.

So now a catalog of what apparently some of you think are “trick parts”...
Let’s start with shock heat exchangers. If you think a finned vessel that your oil goes through to attempt to scrub some heat off is exotic, then you must be easily impressed. You may notice that we only have one shock per wheel rather than 2-3 like most of the other competitors. For us to stay within the rules and not break the bank on refab-ing the truck we elected to use heat exchangers for simplicity. We actually took off the heat exchangers from the front shocks to further simplify the setup. Again, shock coolers are not exotic, not hard to get (Fox and King both have one available), guys made them by hand back in the day.

Shock length / Travel
Stock length leafs, shackles, intact stock coil buckets, and no modification to the frame will limit travel. If someone wants to lift their Bronco to the moon and think they are going to have more usable travel, they are mistaken and will probably be out of the race on the first day. Even the Bluetorch Bronco which is supposedly the benchmark for period-correct admittedly doesn’t have “stock” shock mounts. I do agree that stock pivot locations should not be changed to stay within the pioneer class. The bottom line is a longer shock isn’t going to miraculously provide more travel and all of us forced to run an interpretation of stock, seems ridiculous. The rules as they are written will limit usable travel. Any additional rules will just create an opportunity for any real racer with ingenuity to interpret for a real advantage over what was conceptually intended (more rules = $$$).

Engines should be carbureted, I don’t think there is really any question that this is the right thing for pioneer. I have a 302 block stroked to 347 with a carb. Actually a pretty mild powerplant running on pump gas through a notoriously weak-link, a C4 transmission. I would say to anyone with a similar Bronco to what we all run at NORRA, who thinks a ton of HP will win this race… good luck, go for it.

Radius arms are zero advantage unless they are longer and/or connected via something other than rubber donuts. We are going to put the same old stock (bent) pair we ran for 9 years back on and not think about it again. Radius arms don’t make you faster.

Yes, we have Wilwood brakes. Apparently ‘yall have a case of brake envy I read so many comments about them. We couldn’t get the ones we had before to work, so we threw everything we could at our brake issues to try and be safer. We couldn’t get the fancy Wilwoods to work very well either for the first 2 years and now after literally years of trial and error (risking life and limb) we finally have decent brakes. Rules should never be changed to force any of us to use “vintage” or vintage approved, “period correct” brake kits from dubious recreational bronco suppliers. We drive the piss out of our old ‘68 and the brakes keep us from dying. If they fit inside a 15” rim you should be allowed to use them.

This brings me to my final point.
We work hard all year on our program by making and maintaining relationships with companies that help us show up in April to race. We are marketing guys in our day jobs, that is what we do. Some of you are Bronco experts but we don’t mock your knowledge because we think it gives you an unfair advantage. If anything, we have done our job too good. Because of our efforts, you guys all think we are some sort of trophy truck team. It’s myself and Brian. That’s it. We have to keep moving the Bronco between our two tiny garages because we don’t have a proper shop space, we don’t even own a welder. I see the workspace most of you enjoy and I’m jealous but not envious to the point of malicious. We have had success because we come prepared and we don’t break our shit. Our trucks are all VERY close in configuration, power, and have similar performance limits. Let’s sort this out and continue to race together!

VIVA BAJA
-Boyd

 

[markw]

Well well well. Easy there Boyd.
I didn't ask that the rules be changed for my benefit. I made my point and moved to the next class.
What are you so bent about? Maybe go talk to Chris if you don't like the new rules.
Yup, I'm new at this. So is everyone else who get started. Does that make my opinion or anyone else's less valid? It's really not rocket science.
So the rules appear to be changed Amigo. See ya in Legends!

 

[markw]

And thanks for the offer on your used parts. I have a set of Duffs arms we won't be using.
As to breaking stuff. Pretty much every time out for us is R & D. Part of being new at this game. Every time we go out we learn more and we will be better prepared and faster. That's racing isn't it?

 

[DelDiablo]

Well well well. Easy there Boyd.
I didn't ask that the rules be changed for my benefit. I made my point and moved to the next class.
What are you so bent about? Maybe go talk to Chris if you don't like the new rules.
Yup, I'm new at this. So is everyone else who get started. Does that make my opinion or anyone else's less valid? It's really not rocket science.
So the rules appear to be changed Amigo. See ya in Legends!

Well actually Mark you didn't just move on now did you? It appears you've been on this thread and others ever since May giving your .02 on anything and everything to do with the rules in Pioneer and what "special" parts I use to gain an advantage. Did you think I would be thrilled to see all the smack you've been stirring the pot with? Yes in my mind your opinion does NOT carry the same weight as the guys who have more skin in this. Respect is earned "Amigo". Change your arms, get a carb and some 33's and come race in Pioneer with the rest of us, the goal is for us all to be together. We should all come to Legends, spend more $$ to be competitive because why? Because we built trucks to the letter of the rules? Leave one guy in Pioneer by himself...? I say we figure this out like gentlemen and be as inclusive as possible. To begin with though, plotting against one team on some obscure online forum not a great way to start negotiations. -B.

 

[markw]

Okay, well back to being a civil person. I understand you're upset that someone moved the target when you had your truck honed to perfection according to the existing rules.
I thought I built mine to those rules too but I was wrong and got bumped to legends. Many things on my Bronco wouldn't be allowed now in Pioneer, not just the radius arms which would be very easy to revert back to. If it was just that I'd do it and be happy to race in Pioneer. That's where I'd rather compete really but I'm not going to build a whole new Bronco to do it. So if some others come into Legends it will be more fun because it becomes a head to head race and not just comparing overall times.
Keep in mind when you're on top you automatically have a target on your back. I don't need to be a 10 year veteran to understand that. Yes, Chris used your design. Is there a truly original one out there after all these years? We looked at a lot of designs before we built my Bronco but did it the way we wanted for better or worse. But we didn't copy anything you did. Did we do it all correctly? No, of course not. We were a couple of rookies building in my own shop and made a lot of mistakes. That's part of the challenge and part of the fun. We did get straightened out by Jason on many things but in the end the design and fabrication was ours. Complete, unsponsored privateer newbies.
The reason I think the new rules are cool is it does make it more attractive to new racers. Be great to have more Broncos in the race and not just more UTVs. If you wanted to change a couple of things and stay in Pioneer I have no doubt you'd still win your class, you guys are fast and experienced. Up to you at this point I guess.
No one excluded you from this conversation at any time. This is a public forum, social media. No secret. Your input would have been welcome and valued.

 

[Bukin 67]

I've been at work trying to write my response for the last few hours whenever I could grab a couple of minutes, so some of it has been covered and more responses have been logged, but here's mine.

Boyd, I honestly thought you were a member on here. Now I see why you never chimed in.

This doesn't single you out by any means. Team Greenwood was told his racer was in the spirit of NORRA. But now he too may need to make some changes to remain in Pioneer. We were bumped, but hey, we're still racing and in the end that's what was the most important to us.
I thought we all agreed at the M1K that rule clarifications and changes were definitely needed, especially for newbies coming in. The class rules have been evolving since 2016 when NORRA split the original classes up into Eras to fine tune them and make it fair so everyone who entered would be racing like-performance vehicles. It's been done in many classes before. Just look at the Vintage rules for class 5-1600, 1/2-1600, 9 & 11. There are 12 pages of rules just for those 4 Vintage classes alone to clarify everything for the same reason we're going through all this. Now NORRA is trying their best to make sure they preserve the history of the race by making sure the vehicles who enter are period correct as much as possible without sacrificing safety. I believe the earlier NORRA classes need these changes to be preserved for the history of the sport as the years go on.
Your Wilwood brakes should be fine, btw:

• Brakes are open. Aftermarket disk brakes are allowed on all 4 corners, however the 15” rim limitation will self-limit rotor diameter.

I want to build a Pioneer correct racer, which is why I am so interested in these rules. I want to make sure I don't go off on a tangent and spend unnecessary coin where I could do it cheaper and stay within the rules at the same time.
I built my Vintage Class bronco much the same way you did. On a shoe string budget and no shop. I had already owned it almost 15 years when NORRA started in 2010. It was a great trail rig, but it wasn't race ready. It was hard to take something that worked fine and 'fix' it. When I needed real fab work done, I had a real fab guy on it just like you did. We're all just looking to have fun and do what we love. For me, Baja itself is a passion, not just racing there. I spend a lot of my free time there because I love the culture and the people. I think that in the end this will only make the NORRA race more fun for everyone. Come race Legends with us! It's just as fun and very competitive for the overall.

 

[seventimechamp]

• Shocks: Coilovers are not allowed. Bypass shocks are not allowed (internal or external). Shock diameter is a maximum of 2” OD. Remote reservoirs are allowed. The number of shocks per wheel is open however one of these must be mounted in the stock upper and lower mounting locations to restrict travel to near stock. The mounting locations of additional shocks is open.
.

I would like to drop this little nugget that will blow a hole in this proposed required stock shock mount rule.

This is what happens when you let people who aren't experienced at working around the rules, suggest the rules. I'm all for limiting travel, which the current rule of stock coil bucket, stock leaf locations, stock shackles, and not modifying the frame already does. Asking everyone to install a dumby shock to meet the rules wont change a thing. The above picture is a perfect example of that.

We have had the respect of Chris Wilson to reach out and run these changes by us. Proably more so we can punch holes in them, but we do appreciate Chris including us externally in the conversation.

As Boyd said, the more rules you create the harder it will be for new teams to bring their garage beauty down to race and the more expenseive everything will get. Like Todd said, even his truck doesn't have stock shock mounts.

Do you guys really think that we have won 7 times because we have more travel? I think you guys forget about how many times people have crashed or broke on the first day of the first stage. I know a couple of guys on this thread that will need to raise their hand for that one.

I am happy to have the big target on our backs, we deserve it. We work our asses off all year to create hype and build corporate relationships to bring more eyeballs to NORRA, which why some of you are here right... I guess, should we say, you're welcome?

 

[markatherton]

norra

I am building two broncos for Norra. I have been on hold for some time waiting for these rule changes for Pioneer. Both my trucks were raced in the 70's and they each have two stroppe shock mounting brackets in the front, one on each side of the coil spring location. (I think same as Andrews Slessinger bronco). Does that pass muster? Can I use the stronger old school F150 power steering box? Thank you for your input. Mark in San Diego. Beach City Broncos (yes I have a shop)

 

[markatherton]

norra

Slessinger...Kasinger… whatever.

 

[garberz]

I thought the whole reason for defining and simplifying the rules for Pioneer class, was to make it more competitive for the period correct race cars, and attract new entries while maintaining a budget friendly approach to racing. The way the existing rules have been interpreted, leaves Todd and Andrew at a big disadvantage. They are forced to keep their Bronco true to the period for obvious reasons. Thus, making them the true spirit of NORRA. Every year it’s like they’re running their own race. I’m all for streamlining the rules for this class. I think it would attract more cars because of all the limitations.

Mark

 

[BajaBronco]

Slessinger...Kasinger… whatever.

great, Mark.....now even Sue KAYSINGER is gonna get on here.

Nope, dont say anything I'm firing off a postcard invite right now!

 

[seventimechamp]

I thought the whole reason for defining and simplifying the rules for Pioneer class, was to make it more competitive for the period correct race cars, and attract new entries while maintaining a budget friendly approach to racing. The way the existing rules have been interpreted, leaves Todd and Andrew at a big disadvantage. They are forced to keep their Bronco true to the period for obvious reasons. Thus, making them the true spirit of NORRA. Every year it’s like they’re running their own race. I’m all for streamlining the rules for this class. I think it would attract more cars because of all the limitations.

Mark

I agree with everything you are saying other than saying Andrew & Todd are at a huge disadvantage. They are great guys and I mean no disrespect but these are facts... Out of the 7 years we have won, they have broke or crashed on the first stage of the first day three times. Two of the other years they were in minutes of us going into the final day, and I know for sure they were beating us by almost 30 minutes starting day 3 two years ago. Doesn’t sound like they are at any disadvantage.

Is the vehicle rules causing them to be a disadvantage or just themselves?

I have an idea, you want to make it more fair for everyone, take the GPS out and make everyone only use the road book. No suspension, brakes, whatever is going to make you fast without knowing where you are going..., just saying.

We prep a car that won’t break, we bring tons of parts, we bring an experienced team, we gain track position between every stage = less dust, we know where to drive fast and where to be careful, we double check all of our times for errors, we record every mile of the race and reference it for next year, we attend driving schools, the list goes on...., What I’m saying, is it’s not our race car that is faster.

 

[markw]

Boyd, I'm still not sure why you're bent out of shape at me. This is a hobby for me, not my defining characteristic. I had fun racing with Randy and decided to build my own Bronco out of parts. Had I to do it over again I would have Kept It Simple Stupid. But I got carried away and used parts I had on hand for other things. Believe me it would have been far easier on my pocketbook and time and likely would have had just as much fun, or more. When I wrote of expensive parts I was referencing my own Bronco, not yours. Based on my own experience of going WAY overboard on stuff I can see the wisdom of keeping things much closer to stock and how that would encourage more people to get into the hobby and make for more fun racing. It's not as much fun racing in a class of one. I'd put on stock arms and a carb in a heartbeat if that was all it would take to get back into Pioneer. It would be very cool to have 5 or 10 EBs racing in Pioneer and I hope once all this blows over that will happen.
You guys have elevated the sport and set the standard, and yes thank you for that.
As for going out the first time and crashing....well there's a reason Randy is the driver, not me. I have no illusions of being able to drive the way he does or you guys do. I'm pretty content to do the build and some of the codriving and enjoying the company of like minded men. As I say, this is a hobby for me, nothing more. I hope when the dust settles you can see that and maybe not see me as the guy who moved your cheese. Mark

 

[BajaBronco]

As I stated shortly after this thread began, there should be more than a radius arm and tire size difference between Legend and Pioneer. I get that we've all been following the "Rule Book" (theres 4 right?), but contingincy class bump and confusion and in face bickering was a drag last year, and when we were all asked about input for rules
and would we put some ideas together, I said sure. Like I said in April I can't go down a class to something more antiquated, because Pioneer is it.
Yes, in a way we are running our own race with what we have built/rebuilt. I think there should be a class for trucks like it so Mark Arfington, Albatross, Armyman whatever, and the likes, can come race with us.
I can raise 2 hands that I've crashed first day first stage. You can figure out what I was trying to do.
If it works out that we're all still in the same class, I'm fine, but Norra asked for some ideas, and I like my truck, so I looked at it and jotted down some suggestions many similar to what I saw in the 2010, 2012, 2013 NORRAs I attended/competed.

 

[DelDiablo]

Boyd, I'm still not sure why you're bent out of shape at me. This is a hobby for me, not my defining characteristic. I had fun racing with Randy and decided to build my own Bronco out of parts. Had I to do it over again I would have Kept It Simple Stupid. But I got carried away and used parts I had on hand for other things. Believe me it would have been far easier on my pocketbook and time and likely would have had just as much fun, or more. When I wrote of expensive parts I was referencing my own Bronco, not yours. Based on my own experience of going WAY overboard on stuff I can see the wisdom of keeping things much closer to stock and how that would encourage more people to get into the hobby and make for more fun racing. It's not as much fun racing in a class of one. I'd put on stock arms and a carb in a heartbeat if that was all it would take to get back into Pioneer. It would be very cool to have 5 or 10 EBs racing in Pioneer and I hope once all this blows over that will happen.
You guys have elevated the sport and set the standard, and yes thank you for that.
As for going out the first time and crashing....well there's a reason Randy is the driver, not me. I have no illusions of being able to drive the way he does or you guys do. I'm pretty content to do the build and some of the codriving and enjoying the company of like minded men. As I say, this is a hobby for me, nothing more. I hope when the dust settles you can see that and maybe not see me as the guy who moved your cheese. Mark

No sweat Mark. We are cool, I'm extremely competitive and very protective of our significant investment in the Pioneer class for EB's. Nobody is a bigger proponent of the NORRA model and the Ford Bronco as an off road platform. We were there before the first race in 2009 being cheerleaders for the event and continue to try and elevate what we do in hopes of inspiring others to come join the fun. -B.

 

[enesset]

Atherton in Diego

I am building two broncos for Norra. I have been on hold for some time waiting for these rule changes for Pioneer. Both my trucks were raced in the 70's and they each have two stroppe shock mounting brackets in the front, one on each side of the coil spring location. (I think same as Andrews Slessinger bronco). Does that pass muster? Can I use the stronger old school F150 power steering box? Thank you for your input. Mark in San Diego. Beach City Broncos (yes I have a shop)

Don't forget you and the boys know how to paint a damn fine bronco! This is mine a few weekends ago....COSTCO won't change tires on pre-1980 trucks so I had to roll em off in the parking lot.... While we are focused on you for a minute Mark, I also put some painless wire cover on a few bits.....after having done the wiring on my NORRA Manx, I'm so glad you and the boys did my bronco harness! Thanks again for all the help -- Eric

p.s. hard to believe that was 10 years ago for the paint/body work.....wife and the truck both aging extremely well!

 

[enesset]

I thought the whole reason for defining and simplifying the rules for Pioneer class, was to make it more competitive for the period correct race cars, and attract new entries while maintaining a budget friendly approach to racing. The way the existing rules have been interpreted, leaves Todd and Andrew at a big disadvantage. They are forced to keep their Bronco true to the period for obvious reasons. Thus, making them the true spirit of NORRA. Every year it’s like they’re running their own race. I’m all for streamlining the rules for this class. I think it would attract more cars because of all the limitations.

Mark

As the only 2018 Pioneer buggy in my '69 Meyers Manx.....It should seem natural that the oldest "Pioneer" class remain as close to stock (simple) as possible. Even if it ends up being a 1 or 2 truck class Pioneer can still tell stories and kick dirt around with guys in Legends....correct?

I built a Manx for several reasons....one of them was I thought it would be WAY less expensive than another EB.....all this racing shenanigans is extremely expensive no matter what you race but Pioneer for any vehicle should be as close to "rock simple" as possible? Just because I was the only Manx didn't reduce the camaraderie with all the other Manx in the Evolution Class.

Boyd/Brian are amazing marketers and they will get the eyeballs and sponsorship in Legends just like they would in Pioneer.

Keep Pioneer as basic as possible.

I also have repeatedly noted that having a $1,967 entry fee for Pioneer seems reasonable as well with the golf carts and trophy trucks subsidizing the true spirit of NORRA rigs.

BTW.....Thanks so much Chris, this is a lot of work and I also appreciate you.

 

[enesset]

No sweat Mark. We are cool, I'm extremely competitive and very protective of our significant investment in the Pioneer class for EB's. Nobody is a bigger proponent of the NORRA model and the Ford Bronco as an off road platform. We were there before the first race in 2009 being cheerleaders for the event and continue to try and elevate what we do in hopes of inspiring others to come join the fun. -B.

Boyd, you know good and well that the Fig Newton sponsorship would be just as welcome in Legends as it was in Pioneer!

Darn-it....I know I have a photo of that somewhere.....