Kit Broncos - Is this being talked about?

[Sendero]

I am not a hater nor am I trying to slander any company etc. However, these companies (vintage broncos, classic broncos, highline classics) etc are essentially building kit broncos but are able to claim them as real early broncos? How are they getting ford to provide these VINs? As far as I can tell, there is not one item on these bronco which rolled off of the ford assembly line, including the frame and body. How is this possible and is it saturating the market and bringing down the value of our broncos?

All respect, they are building really nice rigs that I would be happy to have but it's a little frustrating considering we spend a lot of time and money preserving and restoring our OG Broncos.

There are a lot of kit Shelby Cobras out there but last I checked you don't get to claim it is a real Shelby Cobra. They are selling these Bronco's as a "new vehicle" with a warranty but also claiming them to be a 67 bronco. Seems like they are trying to have their cake and eat it to? They also badge all of them as an OG Bronco Sport. Am I missing something?

Thoughts?

 

[Broncoblood]

some of them are buying up the true real survivor and or existing Broncos and injecting them with overkill upgrades and Coyote engines.
legal vin #'s on the frame and glove box doors come with those, that is what I hate, killing the breed.

 

[1969]

https://classicbroncos.com/forums/threads/new-old-broncos-being-made-from-new-parts.316286/

 

[Shimmy]

i dont think i've seen a true OG bronco... even the restored ones have aftermarket panels, floorboards, gas tanks, steering columns, etc. The more I restore mine... the less OG it becomes.

 

[Sendero]

https://classicbroncos.com/forums/threads/new-old-broncos-being-made-from-new-parts.316286/

Thanks for this thread. I was looking for it and couldn't find it but assumed there were a lot of people that have a lot to say about this.

 

[Sendero]

some of them are buying up the true real survivor and or existing Broncos and injecting them with overkill upgrades and Coyote engines.
legal vin #'s on the frame and glove box doors come with those, that is what I hate, killing the breed.

My '66 doesn't have a VIN on the glove box door which I find interesting and if you notice, none of these builds are listed as a '66, a lot of them are 67 or later and I wonder if that is why.

 

[jamesroney]

I am not a hater nor am I trying to slander any company etc. However, these companies (vintage broncos, classic broncos, highline classics) etc are essentially building kit broncos but are able to claim them as real early broncos? How are they getting ford to provide these VINs? As far as I can tell, there is not one item on these bronco which rolled off of the ford assembly line, including the frame and body. How is this possible and is it saturating the market and bringing down the value of our bronco's?

All respect, they are building really nice rigs that I would be happy to have but it's a little frustrating considering we spend a lot of time and money preserving and restoring our OG Broncos.

There are a lot of kit Shelby Cobras out there but last I checked you don't get to claim it is a real Shelby Cobra. They are selling these Bronco's as a "new vehicle" with a warranty but also claiming them to be a 67 bronco. Seems like they are trying to have their cake and eat it to? They also badge all of them as an OG Bronco Sport. Am I missing something?

Thoughts?

I'm pretty sure that the CSX 4000 Continuation Cobras are kit cars and are also real Shelby Cobra.

I'm pretty sure that the early Shelby Cobra 289 and 427 cars are not suffering a reduction in value.
I'm pretty sure that the Hemi Cuda convertibles are not suffering from the clones.
I know that restomod mustangs did not lower the value of my 67 GT500.
There have been Sunbeam Alpine clones of Tigers since the 60's. And Tiger's have always struggled to keep up.

There is a huge difference between "essentially building kits" and building kits. There have been plenty of Muscle Cars that have been "revived" by a re-body.

But no, you are missing nothing. As long as you have the frame VIN...you can build a vehicle. If you can find a Shelby Cobra CSX right rear frame rail at the shock tower...you can build yourself a real Shelby. (This is one reason for the Shelby Registry...)

Every time the market starts to stumble, people immediately blame the clones for the de-valuation of the real thing. But it's not the clones, it's not the scarcity, its not the quality of the build. It is all about demand. And the one thing that drives demand in old cars is "old people." When my dad was young, it was the Deuce Coupe. Then the 50 Merc. Then the 55-57 Chevy. Then the pony car. Then the muscle car. Then the Bronco. Now the 67-72 F series. And the 86-93 Fox Mustang. Next will be ??? (I'm thinking Subaru WRX.) Eventually the Hellcat / Shelby will get their day. Seems like it takes about 40 years for those kids that dreamed of a hot rod to be financially capable of buying what they want. So when they are 55...they have cash.

 

[jamesroney]

My '66 doesn't have a VIN on the glove box door which I find interesting and if you notice, none of these builds are listed as a '66, a lot of them are 67 or later and I wonder if that is why.

No 1966 Bronco had a warranty data plate (you are calling it a VIN) on the glove box door.

Both the 66 and 67 had the data plate (With the Vehicle Identification Number stamped on it) attached to the drivers kick panel near the parking brake.

The Bronco was made for 12 years. There is about a 90% probability that any given bronco will NOT be a 66. Given that the 66 frame is an oddball, and the 66-67 doors and pillars are unique...my guess is that the "project" buyers are sorting on 68-77 frames.

But I could be wrong...

 

[Wild horse 75]

From my understanding vintage broncos is registering these as new broncos not new old ones. Cobras are a bit different in that most of the kits out there are being registered as u-builds, but Shelby America had a number of issued VINs from back in the day that were never built. So the continuation cobras are actually old cobras just being built today. I can’t speak for the other companies you mentioned as I don’t know. There are other companies however that are buying early broncos and completely rebuilding them with new components. So technically it’s all new but it still carry registration of an early bronco.

 

[don k]

I do not understand why this is any different from a person that has a Bronco in need of a restoration or at least a part. They buy a new body. They find they need a new frame. Then decide an engine and transmission upgrade would be great. Their once original Bronco is no more. So, what is the difference between this and what the restoration shops are doing?

 

[carter2772]

Another thing to think about is supply and demand... If the demand for high end vehicles/bronco builds, the customer is not going to be ok with a rusty frame or body, and typically wont have the knowledge or desire to work on the eb. So they are just fine with spending big coin on a completley new build. And then, a shop cant build a 100% new bronco and treat it like a "kit car" to loose money. It gets to 250k really quick in parts and labor, and in a lot of cases even more, potentially much more.

 

[Sendero]

I do not understand why this is any different from a person that has a Bronco in need of a restoration or at least a part. They buy a new body. They find they need a new frame. Then decide an engine and transmission upgrade would be great. Their once original Bronco is no more. So, what is the difference between this and what the restoration shops are doing?

I agree with you there is no difference here. But I think I would also argue the person who does this also doesn’t have an original 66-77 bronco.

 

[bigmuddy]

I think the rub here maybe with the companies using Ford VIN numbers on brand new frames. Many are doing it and most are open that they are titling a brand new ride under and old but clean title. Essentially in alot of cases taking your old crusty bronco and chucking it, while keeping the warranty plate, glove box and VIN.. All else is long gone to the crusher or parted out to pay for the new with exception of the frame. Frankly, I understand its a grey area legally with these top builds but the people that have the money to spend on a 150 and up bronco don't care. They want an old retro look that drives and rides like a new car which is possible with some of these 30-50K dollar chassis.

For those that may have seen Jay Leno's bronco this is exactly what he did. Is it still a bronco? I think yes, but mileage may vary

 

[Broncobowsher]

I remember once hearing about George Washington's hatchet that he used to cut down the cherry tree. The head has been replaced 3 times and the handle has been replaced 7 times. But it is still considered George Washington's hatchet. How much of that is original?

 

[jamesroney]

I agree with you there is no difference here. But I think I would also argue the person who does this also doesn’t have an original 66-77 bronco.

Then you would be arguing the paradox of the "Ship of Theseus."

"The ship wherein Theseus and the youth of Athens returned from Crete had thirty oars, and was preserved by the Athenians down even to the time of Demetrius Phalereus, for they took away the old planks as they decayed, putting in new and stronger timber in their places, insomuch that this ship became a standing example among the philosophers, for the logical question of things that grow; one side holding that the ship remained the same, and the other contending that it was not the same." - Plutarch, Life of Theseus 23.1 49AD

Fortunately, the question about the alternate components was also documented:

"For if that Ship of Theseus (concerning the Difference whereof, made by continual reparation, in taking out the old Planks, and putting in new, the sophisters of Athens were wont to dispute) were, after all the Planks were changed, the same Numerical Ship it was at the beginning; and if some Man had kept the Old Planks as they were taken out, and by putting them afterward together in the same order, had again made a Ship of them, this, without doubt, had also been the same Numerical Ship with that which was at the beginnings and so there would have been two Ships Numerically the same, which is absurd...— Hobbes, "Of Identity and Difference" 1656AD

I'm pretty certain that we are all wrong.

 

[jamesroney]

I remember once hearing about George Washington's hatchet that he used to cut down the cherry tree. The head has been replaced 3 times and the handle has been replaced 7 times. But it is still considered George Washington's hatchet. How much of that is original?

Many different forms of the Ship of Theseus...
France has Jeannot's knife.
Spain uses "the family knife"
Hungary has Lajos Kossuth's pocket knife".
The "grandfather's axe" and "Trigger's broom" where an old broom or axe has had both its head and its handle replaced, leaving no original components.
In Japan, the Ise Grand Shrine is rebuilt every twenty years with entirely "new wood".
The ancient Buddhist text Da zhidu lun contains a similar philosophical puzzle: a story of a traveler who encountered two demons in the night. As one demon ripped off all parts of the traveler's body one by one, the other demon replaced them with those of a corpse, and the traveler was confused about who he was.

One interpretation of the paradox is that with the passage of time, nothing is ever the same as it was. A tree, a blade of grass, a human, or a Bronco. There is no such thing as original, because it is always changing. Are you the same person that you were yesterday?

 

[bronkenn]

I'm out...

 

[bigmuddy]

This went off the rails rather quickly didn't it...

 

[gmduncan]

From my understanding vintage broncos is registering these as new broncos not new old ones. Cobras are a bit different in that most of the kits out there are being registered as u-builds, but Shelby America had a number of issued VINs from back in the day that were never built. So the continuation cobras are actually old cobras just being built today. I can’t speak for the other companies you mentioned as I don’t know. There are other companies however that are buying early broncos and completely rebuilding them with new components. So technically it’s all new but it still carry registration of an early bronco.

https://cobra-authority.com/category/gallery/shelby-csx-continuation/#:~:text=Shelby authorized continuations of the,are fitted with modern amenities.

Continuation Shelby Cobras w/ CSX Chassis​

Shelby authorized continuations of the original AC-built Cobra series. Produced in Las Vegas, Nevada, these cars retain the general style and appearance of their original 1960s ancestors, but are fitted with modern amenities. The initial version for continuation was a 427 S/C model which was represented in the CSX4000 series.

In 2009, CSX4999 was produced, concluding the 4000 series. Production has continued with the CSX6000 series, featuring "coil over" suspension.

The 289 FIA "leaf spring" race version of the car is reproduced as the CSX7000 series.

The original "slab side" leaf spring street car is the CSX8000 series.

 

[1969]

Hmm looks over at my bronco…

Engine… mustang
Transmission… f250
Transfer case… f150
Axles… super duty

*shrugs*