New / Old broncos being made from new parts.

[bax]

How are the companies like Velocity and Icon and others getting a Title for their products? It is too the point where broncos are being built with zero original parts used. How are these titled? They have no vin numbers. Is there as built title? I do know how easy it is to swap titles and vin's and play all those games but the "new" trucks being built cant all be using old titles? How is this being done?

 

[Shimmy]

i always wondered this too. there are ways to title/register cars without vins and it's different with each state. curious to know the vin status when they sell them though

 

[1970 Palmer]

They are not NEW Bronco's, they are REBUILT OLD Broncos. You begin with a titled/registered/plated Bronco then replace every part with new. The original frame VIN# and the glove box door remain with the rebuilt Bronco. The new frame is just a replacement repair part to replace the original damaged/rusted frame. The State DMV has to have a process to legally allow existing vehicles to be repaired with replacement parts.

In the motorcycle industry, we supplied OE Factory replacement warranty frames that were embossed with the original vehicle VIN#, and it was California legal. We had to submit to original stamped frame part before they would stamp the replacement frame.

On vintage trailers the DMV routinely "assigns new VIN#'s" to old vintage trailers which is completely sketchy In My Opinion. They basically take a unknown 1950's trailer and stick a new assigned vin# sticker and call it a 2022 trailer. It's just wrong in so many different ways.

They cannot get away doing this on a motor vehicle because of all the newer safety and emission regulations.

 

[phred]

Hey Bax, as my dad always said “just follow the money”. If there’s big money being made someone will fine a way. Legal or otherwise

 

[Kbpony]

I have very mixed feeling on this subject. I understand these “high end builders” are skirting more stringent regulations by “rebuilding” old Broncos, and it frustrates me that they are in many cases “throwing away” the foundation that many on this forum would be thrilled to use as a base to start from. At the same time, it continues to drive the price up on project trucks because of their scarcity. I believe the “spirit of the law” would be that they assign new vin’s to these new vehicles, and my preference would be that they would be held to that standard. I fully understand “money talks”.
However, as much as I have a strong opinion about this, when I look in the mirror, I see a guy whose Bronco still contains its original dash, front axle, transmission and transfer case, and not much else. So, I guess I don’t have a lot of room to talk!

 

[syndicate1]

I’ve heard that shops like Ikon are “manufacturing” “building” below the legal threshold (a loophole) that would consider these shops cat manufacturers. Hence the long wait times. Only so many the are allowed to build per year. Whether or not this is true, I don’t know.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DirtDonk]

I can’t say it for velocity, but it was my understanding that all along icon has been using the original frame.
Now maybe that’s not always the case, or perhaps maybe no longer true, but they searched for good condition parts to start with.
That way even if they replaced every body part or suspension part or engine part, they still have the original foundation with proper registration provenance.
Several icon experts here on the forum and they should be able to answer that question.

 

[hummerdan]

 

[Madgyver]

what about custom built frames on so called "High End Builds"?
Do they have a new title to said built frame?

 

[marin77]

I have spoken to one high-priced builder who confirmed they use new frames and rely on title + glovebox tag to get their clients to register the vehicles.

 

[fluffybunny]

In TX, if it's a completely new build (including kit cars), you take the vehicle for inspection by an PD auto theft inspection sight and get a 68A form completed then jump through hoops with the DMV to get a state assigned VIN. It's a lengthy and time consuming process.

 

[Madgyver]

I have spoken to one high-priced builder who confirmed they use new frames and rely on title + glovebox tag to get their clients to register the vehicles.

how do you match new frame to original title?
VIN is in question here..
Do you stamp new frame with old VIN?
isn't it illegal to tamper or alter VIN on original frame.
legally, that is the question.

 

[toddz69]

How are the companies like Velocity and Icon and others getting a Title for their products? It is too the point where broncos are being built with zero original parts used. How are these titled? They have no vin numbers. Is there as built title? I do know how easy it is to swap titles and vin's and play all those games but the "new" trucks being built cant all be using old titles? How is this being done?

The million dollar question that I've never heard a clear answer to!

Todd Z.

 

[toddz69]

They are not NEW Bronco's, they are REBUILT OLD Broncos. You begin with a titled/registered/plated Bronco then replace every part with new. The original frame VIN# and the glove box door remain with the rebuilt Bronco. The new frame is just a replacement repair part to replace the original damaged/rusted frame. The State DMV has to have a process to legally allow existing vehicles to be repaired with replacement parts.

I've heard this explanation before but it always leads to more questions for me. How do the "original frame VIN# and the glove box door remain with the rebuilt Bronco"? Does the new owner literally have to store an old frame in their backyard/garage/storage unit, etc.? And if some agency or entity requests to see the VIN, they have to cart out the frame?? Or do they keep a chunk of the frame with the VIN on it on a shelf at home? How does this practically work?

Todd Z.

 

[toddz69]

I can’t say it for velocity, but it was my understanding that all along icon has been using the original frame.

Icon has never used original frames in their builds - they've been Art Morrison frames since day 1. But....they buy old Broncos obviously so they're doing something with those frames/VINs...

Todd Z.

 

[Shimmy]

I can't remember which builder it was, but they were being interviewed and i recall them saying that 30% of their builds they source everything. The other percent left was folks actually giving them their bronco.

 

[sprdv1]

How are the companies like Velocity and Icon and others getting a Title for their products? It is too the point where broncos are being built with zero original parts used. How are these titled? They have no vin numbers. Is there as built title? I do know how easy it is to swap titles and vin's and play all those games but the "new" trucks being built cant all be using old titles? How is this being done?

Bribing someone ain't they...

 

[sprdv1]

I have spoken to one high-priced builder who confirmed they use new frames and rely on title + glovebox tag to get their clients to register the vehicles.

That's what I'd think would have to happen

 

[yamar73]

Is this not part of the small volume manufacturer's act?

https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/2022-02/Replica-Vehicles-Final-Rule-02-22-2022-Disclaimer.pdf

 

[1970 Palmer]

I've heard this explanation before but it always leads to more questions for me. How do the "original frame VIN# and the glove box door remain with the rebuilt Bronco"? Does the new owner literally have to store an old frame in their backyard/garage/storage unit, etc.? And if some agency or entity requests to see the VIN, they have to cart out the frame?? Or do they keep a chunk of the frame with the VIN on it on a shelf at home? How does this practically work?

Todd Z.

No doubt that some smoke and mirrors are involved in these activities. It's very close to the problems that hit the cloned Cobra's guys 10-15 years ago.

My take on it is that at least in California it's very important to anyone willing to drop $100K plus into a project to not be tied to the 1975 and later California emission requirements. And you have a big incentive to not have your Early Bronco registered as a new build with an assigned DMV VIN#.

The new "replacement" Art Morrison frame becomes the same VIN# as your current (rusted/bent/damaged) Early Bronco frame, and with your current Title and Registration to support your full ownership. The old rusted, bent, damaged frame gets destroyed (I would save the small section area with the original VIN# for your records). This has happened for decades when a vehicle manufacturer has the need to warranty replace a frame that has a VIN# embossed into it. About the only difference is the manufacturer, or their distributor requires that they receive the frame section showing the embossed VIN# before they will stamp and ship out the replacement frame. I have experienced both sides of this issue. I have been a state licensed distributor vehicle sales representative, and a service manager in a dealership selling and servicing six brands.

I think the BIG question has nothing to do about stolen vehicles and switching VIN#'s like commonly done in a chop shop operation. It has to do with State Motor Vehicle Departments collecting revenue dollars. In California, our registration fee/license is based on the purchase price of the car/truck/trailer/motorcycle. 10% tax on a $250K ICON Bronco is a lot of money. And it's a recurring expense every year at renewal time. Why in the world would you ever not want it to be just your old existing Bronco Title and Registration?

This is an unresolved sleeping issue. You know it will become headlines someday, when a big name builder gets hit. It happened to Boyd Cottington.