Blueprint 302 (365 HP) vs 347 (415 HP) vs 408 (450 HP)

[nvrstuk]

I just deleted the tab but I think it was $2495 SBF. I'll look again then I've gotta go shovel snow.

 

[nvrstuk]

Found it. and the price was even better $2424.

https://shanonsengineering.com/prod...c-mains-engine-block-scat-4-9000-series-crank

I'm sure you know someone who has a commercial addy and can unload it. Probably the machine shop.... so scroll down and check out the shipping rates.

 

[rocknhorse76]

94-97 E-150 vans are a great source for a 351W roller block. Most of them were driven by old farts and received very little abuse. The one I am running right now for my 408W was stock bore with hardly any wear in the bores. It also had a factory oil cooler that i may try to use at some point. So far I have no cooling issues using a basically stock-sized universal Griffin aluminun radiator with 2 rows of 1.25” tubes, custom shroud, and Explorer clutch fan.

 

[nvrstuk]

Tim found a great donor for sure but you didn't give up as you had 3 others right?
You got a great deal.

 

[bmc69]

Could always just build a stroked 400 (445) and call it a day. ;-)

 

[73azbronco]

Here, OEM ford with warranty, 351 boss block factory 427 shortblock, $7,500. Heck, I am thinking of doing this putting it on the shelf for a year, nvrstuk, you had issue with a ford block?

https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6009-427F

 

[nvrstuk]

Here, OEM ford with warranty, 351 boss block factory 427 shortblock, $7,500. Heck, I am thinking of doing this putting it on the shelf for a year, nvrstuk, you had issue with a ford block?

https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6009-427F

Correct-
I sure did have issues with a Ford block. And it wasn't the block as much as the fact that they bored the block for the wrong pistons. So when it left their building, it had the clearance for nitrous (different alloy pistons) at 0.006" instead of .003".

I also had a couple others that had similar piston slap issues with Ford Performance builds-they called and shared their stories.

The machining and sourced parts are drool worthy but great parts mean zip, nada, nothing when the specifications for each part aren't followed and create major potential failure issues AND then Ford Performance tries to not honor their "work" by saying "it wasn't tuned properly, not warmed up properly and..." yet there was zero taper in all 8 cylinders!

I mean it looked like it had just come out of the machine shop w/o any taper. Yet they tried to tell me multiple times it was something I'd done!

Whew, I would not recommend purchasing any assembled product from them. Unless you got it for free.

Then send it out for blueprinting so you can check and see if the parts they used match the specs for those parts.

Then you'd be OK.

 

[rocknhorse76]

Tim found a great donor for sure but you didn't give up as you had 3 others right?
You got a great deal.

Haha yeah Tim Booth and I had to work our butts off to pull that engine, so the yard cut me a killer deal for the block. And yes, I have 3 spare blocks now lol. They’re all only good for a stock stroke though.

 

[nvrstuk]

Here, OEM ford with warranty, 351 boss block factory 427 shortblock, $7,500. Heck, I am thinking of doing this putting it on the shelf for a year, nvrstuk, you had issue with a ford block?

https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6009-427F

That's a good buy. I'd still pull it down if I bought it. Just need gaskets for absolute pc of mind. Beats letting it sit a year and losing a third of the warranty and if you did have issues with it down the road??? t
This way you'd know 100% if it was it OK when you assembled it.

 

[73azbronco]

Correct-
I sure did have issues with a Ford block. And it wasn't the block as much as the fact that they bored the block for the wrong pistons. So when it left their building, it had the clearance for nitrous (different alloy pistons) at 0.006" instead of .003".

I also had a couple others that had similar piston slap issues with Ford Performance builds-they called and shared their stories.

The machining and sourced parts are drool worthy but great parts mean zip, nada, nothing when the specifications for each part aren't followed and create major potential failure issues AND then Ford Performance tries to not honor their "work" by saying "it wasn't tuned properly, not warmed up properly and..." yet there was zero taper in all 8 cylinders!

I mean it looked like it had just come out of the machine shop w/o any taper. Yet they tried to tell me multiple times it was something I'd done!

Whew, I would not recommend purchasing any assembled product from them. Unless you got it for free.

Then send it out for blueprinting so you can check and see if the parts they used match the specs for those parts.

Then you'd be OK.

My understanding is you don't want taper NA, is that something you want pressurized? seeing specs max out at .001 taper?

 

[nvrstuk]

No taper!

 

[73azbronco]

Thanks! saving pennies for a 427 looks like, right after the 4r70 or 6r80, or atlas. Choices choices.

Lets say I do this, any benefit using iron heads for even more stoutness? Found this kit for $7,200 on a few other websites. Free to $200 delivered FOB lift gate.

 

[nvrstuk]

Is this for the FP 351W racing block? If so, the internals are drool worthy! lol

With what I know now - I'd go Dart for several reasons.

Dart block- can be bored up to 454 cubes (can't remember the amount-only did it once for a friend) but the FP racing block can only be bored about 6-10 thou without sonic testing.
That leads to #2 reason.
BEEF- the Dart block casting around the cyl bores is much thicker so it cools even better than the FP block.





Always upgrade the valve train. This is even where TF & AFR offer $ savings.
Always, not a choice- upgrade the valvetrain hardware.

4r bolts up works great

6r needs an adapter and is greater, much greater.

 

[73azbronco]

I'm with ya, already figured in, plan a trip to my machinist with said buy, TBD, he found defective out of the box Edelbrock head valve guide clearance for my 347.

 

[WPS 73 Bronco]

I visited a very reputable restauration shop here in Houston this week. They restore 10-12 EB's a year, and over a 100 vehicles a year. Most of their work is on Chevy's, but about 25% is Ford products, and all classic vehicles.

I'm now more confused as they told me I should stray away from the 408 and drop in a 347 (only 35 less HP @ 415). Their issue has been the cam in the 408 being too big. They feel that the Blueprint 347 is a perfect fit for a Bronco. That's their number one engine of choice due to torque, HP, and compression ratio of 10.1.

They also expressed concerns with EFI (Holley, Pro Flow, etc) becasue they are so dificult to tune due to the extreme termperature swings we see here in Houston. They said go carb all day long.

 

[36Fan]

I visited a very reputable restauration shop here in Houston this week. They restore 10-12 EB's a year, and over a 100 vehicles a year. Most of their work is on Chevy's, but about 25% is Ford products, and all classic vehicles.

I'm now more confused as they told me I should stray away from the 408 and drop in a 347 (only 35 less HP @ 415). Their issue has been the cam in the 408 being too big. They feel that the Blueprint 347 is a perfect fit for a Bronco. That's their number one engine of choice due to torque, HP, and compression ratio of 10.1.

They also expressed concerns with EFI (Holley, Pro Flow, etc) becasue they are so dificult to tune due to the extreme termperature swings we see here in Houston. They said go carb all day long.

Personally I would avoid that shop.

 

[nvrstuk]

I visited a very reputable restauration shop here in Houston this week. They restore 10-12 EB's a year, and over a 100 vehicles a year. Most of their work is on Chevy's, but about 25% is Ford products, and all classic vehicles.

I'm now more confused as they told me I should stray away from the 408 and drop in a 347 (only 35 less HP @ 415). Their issue has been the cam in the 408 being too big. They feel that the Blueprint 347 is a perfect fit for a Bronco. That's their number one engine of choice due to torque, HP, and compression ratio of 10.1.

They also expressed concerns with EFI (Holley, Pro Flow, etc) becasue they are so dificult to tune due to the extreme termperature swings we see here in Houston. They said go carb all day long.

I wouldn't say this if I wasn't so biased from building more than a few and wheeled with more than a few sb strokers for several decades.

2 main points:

- No way is this shop experienced in owning, driving or wheeling an EB. Sorry but they aren't long term anyway. Maybe to tune it but that's it and here' s why. HP and torque are two totall different entities & they know this but didn't share anything but an HP # with you. Torque gets 5,000#'s moving. The difference is not seat of the pants feel it is VERY REAL and very satisfying to know that when you need it, it's there. When wheeling depending on the terrain then it's a gamechanger on a heavy vehicle with large OD tires. This isn't a Mustang with 26.5" tires.

Try to believe me when I say this- you can't kill the torque in a 408 with a "cam being too big". I mean if it won't idle it's too big but I run over 250 duration @ .050" lift and over .609" lift with 1.65 rockers and my 460 sb idles at 775rpm and probably has 200 more ft lbs of torque at 2K rpm than a 347. There is no comparison- none.

- Tuning. Temperature swings affecting tuning? Altitude affecting tuning but not temp. Temp is EZ to tune. Air density without mass air is not. Houston does not have the temp swings I have here. Zero degree days with sub -10 and sub -20 degree days that I have started right up and driven off in- yes, I pull my tube doors and run my full doors but still run my windbreaker behind the front seats (1/2 cab). I commonly get 100 deg summer days that my rig starts up fine and we had record 115deg heat 4 summers ago. 95 deg days and 57deg nights are common here in the Valley-that's a temp swing.

I know guys running TermX and no issue- zip. Altitude is a totally different game and because neither the TermX or ProFlo have mass air that is their major tuning fault. I have spoken at length with 3 different Holley techs strictly about altitude and know how to deal with this now when let's say I load my trailer at my 1800ft elevation and tow to CO to 6K feet or Moab at 4K ft. Any non-mass air vehicle will eventually adapt to the difference but takes time and won't be perfect but decent. Usually a bit rough for a while. Same when you get home.

Do not let these guys tell you a cam is too big for a 408 unless it's a monster (by my stds) and then usually it's the lift limitations on the valves for that head that would limit you.

These guys are biased and it's not a legit bias either. It's personal or they had trouble with something once and now want to practice the KISS method since they can tune a 347. I know, rough but they must have had a problem that nobody else had/has because that problem ain't real.

HP comparison between a 347 and a 408 might only be whatever small amount they quoted you (probably with the 347 cam in the 408 block to get such low numbers for a 408 BUT its the TORQUE that you want and everyone notices with a big block cubed yet small block stroker. They said only 35 more HP? Seriously, if they got the smallest cam from a stock 289 and put it in a 408 and dyno'd it the numbers for the 408 and used a large cam for the 347 then it might be only 50-75hp more than a 347 but if you properly size all the parts then the 408 will blow the pants off the 347. You have 63 more cubes in the 408. At 1.5hp per cube that means you should/could/outta have 90 more hp and a LOT higher torque #'s between the two.

Carb is fine if you're never wheeling it. Street rods run carbs all day every day and no issues. Save a bunch of coin too.

Sorry I wrote a book but you said you were a bit confused and this shop is pointing you towards their comfort zone for some reason and it probably has to do with the difference of bolting on a carb and it runs decent and nobody complains compared to wiring up an injection system and having to get it to run properly compared to the absolutely simplicity of bolting on a carb. If this shop puts out 100 vehicles/year then this is their go to familar for what works for them. Takes 20 minutes to unpack a carb and bolt it on-literally. Takes a little more time than that for efi.

Street queen? Go 408 w/Vic Jr and never look back.


Yes, I'm biased towards the stroker because once again I'll say it, not ONE person who has installed a sbf stroker has regretted it that I know. Not a one.

 

[nvrstuk]

I'm with ya, already figured in, plan a trip to my machinist with said buy, TBD, he found defective out of the box Edelbrock head valve guide clearance for my 347.

So glad your machinist found that!!!

 

[lars]

^^^what nvrstuk wrote. I have a Blueprint 408 in my Bronco. Too big of a cam??? Really?!? Uh, no. The 347 may make nice looking torque numbers, but they are happening at 4000+ rpm. My 408 may have a lumpy idle but it's insta-torque as soon as the tach needle rises off the peg. I only wish I had an automatic to better utilize said torque... Oh wait, I'm about to install a 4R70W.. In any case, 22 years with a mildly upgraded Explorer 5.0 that ran great and I thought I loved. Until the 408. Would never go back. Oh yeah my Bronco tips the scales at 5300 pounds. Right-away-torque is essential to get it moving.

As for EFI vs carb... really?!? As Brian wrote, temperature has only a minor effect on tuning. Altitude is much more significant. I fly naturally asipirated piston powered aircraft and it's a big deal in that world. The Ford-based EFI on my 408 has zero issues managing my engine from sub zero temperatures in the basin & range of Nevada to the 110+ degree temps here in the Sacramento Valley during the summer. It. Just. Runs. Find another shop.

 

[73azbronco]

I will add though, if that is the shop you want to use, say the only one you have, do what they say when they say. Even if wrong to us...