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Brake issue/warning light

Kilroy007

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Joined
Jun 14, 2020
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13
Hey guys, I’m new to this forum and trying to figure out a weird issue I had with my bronco. I’m sorry if I posted in the wrong section.

I took the bronco for an easy but long trail ride yesterday and had some issues with my brakes towards the end of my descent. It was about two hours of slow down hill travel and near the bottom, I had the pedal go soft and the warning light come on. There was no loss in stopping power, but I parked it thinking the brakes may be hot and that there might be a possible leak. However, I was unable to find a visible leak anywhere besides a small amount oozing out of the fluid reservoir. After letting the brakes cool and finally getting it back in to 2wd, the warning light stayed off and the brakes felt normal again. It made it home after another hour on the highway with no more issues.

It has a full ‘77 brake system with front discs/rear drums as well as the correct master cylinder.

Is it possible that the brakes were just hot from the descent? I can’t think of why they would be fine after I let them cool down if there was a true leak. But I also can’t think of a reason why the pedal would suddenly go soft unless there was a pressure issue.

Any ideas? Am I missing something?

Thank you in advance.
 

68Broncoz

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Dec 12, 2017
Messages
405
Sometimes if the brake fluid get to hot it starts to boil and vaporize and causes a lost of brakes pressure.

It could be that you got your brakes hot enough, however in my experience you can smell the brakes when they are that hot.

It will be interesting to see others opinions as well,

Chris
 

B RON CO

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Hi, X2. Especially if you have an automatic tranny and don't downshift.
Brake fluid will absorb moisture and be more prone to boiling if it is contaminated. It couldn't hurt to bleed the brakes, or empty the master cylinder and run fresh fluid through the whole system, if the fluid is old and dark color. Good luck
 

DirtDonk

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Well, first of all, I'd like to say good on you for still taking your Bronco out off-roading.
And second, congratulations for having the one in 486,001 Brake Warning Lamps that actually went back out after being triggered! That in itself practically qualifies as a miracle these days!
Most will tolerate the constantly illuminated light on the dash for only so long, then unplug the switch wires or remove the bulb.

You might pull the drums off to inspect for fluid seepage around the slave cylinder boots. Might have been just enough to trigger the light, but not enough to see dribbling out the brake drums just yet.

And then of course, welcome to classicbroncos as well.;D

Otherwise, what the others said.
Good luck. Be sure to let us know what you find if you dig into it deeper.

Paul
 
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Kilroy007

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Jun 14, 2020
Messages
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Well off road is where a bronco is the most fun! And thanks everyone for the replies. I will have to check the rear drums, but there is nothing leaking out of them today either. The weird part for me is that the brakes did not smell at all, but they usually seem to get hot on descents. My hubs are always too hot to touch after going down hill for a long period. The oozing out of the reservoir Seems to support the overheating/boiling theory. And thank god the light went out, that was the most annoying thing for the 5 minutes it was on!

I guess a brake fluid flush/replacement wouldn’t hurt. Is there a recommended shop for broncos in Southern California? I’d like to have the brakes checked and fluid flushed. I currently do not have a place to work on it.

Edit: The brakes seemed to feel better when I pumped them but only marginally. And they went back to being soft right after I tried pumping them. The light would go off after I pumped them but only for a short period.
 
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Kilroy007

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I believe I found the issue. I made the mistake trusting a shop to flush my brake fluid when I had some brake lines replaced. I should have checked myself so that’s a lesson learned. Was going to take it on a longer trip with more elevation changes next Monday so I’m glad this happened on the shorter trip.

Thank you all for the replies, I think a lot of you were right that the fluid was contaminated and boiling/vaporizing.
 

DirtDonk

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That's pretty ugly.
And if that's regular brake fluid, it's going to get even uglier when you wipe off the fender and take all the paint with it!

I see that the brake lines have been replaced too. Kind of unusual routing, and unusual too to have two different styles on the same master.
You might want to check that they both go where they're supposed to. The small front reservoir should feed the rear brakes, and the larger rear reservoir feeds the fronts. Especially important with disc brakes.

Wondering if they still go down to a proportioning valve mounted on a stand-off bracket down on the frame. That's something else you may want to revisit someday (sooner rather than later) because I see headers too.
While the factory location was fine when stock, headers put a TON of heat into the prop valve mounted right next to them. Making your system even more prone to overheating.

The hot hubs are perfectly normal when using your brakes a lot. Especially true with disc brakes, but going to happen with any type.
Definitely get that stuff out of there. If you don't have a shop that can do it soon, you can start the process by wiping the edge of the master to get the gunk off, wiping right down into the fluid with a rag or towel, to get any gunk that's on the reservoir walls and floors into suspension with the fluid, then removing as much fluid as you can with a baster or other implement of destruction. Verify there is nothing in clogging the ports in the bottom, pick it out with a tool if you can, then re-fill with fresh high-quality fluid.

A shop is not going to do that most likely. Instead they are going to want to replace the master with a new one and replace the lines too maybe (hopefully!) just to be sure nothing comes back to haunt them.
If they know their stuff they will find and recommend fixing any other faults that a PO may have created with their "creative plumbing" practices.

If you're not able to bleed the whole system yourself, you're maybe going to extra work by doing what I describe to clean the reservoirs. And you never know if you're mixing like-for-like fluids either. But if it was mine it would be a chance I would take.
You can tell if it's regular fluid vs silicone fluid by the way it eats, or does not eat the paint.

I can't say that a shop's method of replacing ALL effected components is not a bad thing to do either. Being a big unknown, there really isn't anything bad to say about a new mater and new proportioning valve and maybe even some new lines.
But with the quality of parts these days, I always question what someone is putting in anymore.

No matter what though, I would make sure that if the prop valve is indeed down by the headers that you move it out of the way.
If it's the standard H-block (distribution block) mounted flat on the frame, it's still in harm's way of the headers but does not pose the same problem that the factory mounted prop valve from a '76 or '77 model does.
Re-routing the lines in any event, to keep them far away from heat, is not a bad thing to consider.

Paul
 
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Kilroy007

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Thanks Paul,

The previous owner was my Dad; however, he did most of this work in the 90’s and does not remember what or why he did some things. And before he owned it, it was a ranch/work truck. I’ve been spending a lot of time and money working on this thing or paying people to do so to get it road/trail ready again. Unfortunately I do not have a place to work on it at the moment. I could wipe it down like you said, unless I bleed them in the street and that is illegal where I live.

It looks like the bigger rear reservoir does indeed feed the front disks, but I am going to want the brake lines replaced or relocated along with the distribution block. It looks like it is not mounted on the frame, but right next to the headers so I believe this is the problem you mentioned with keeping the same mounting as the stock ‘76/77 location. It also appears that the steering shaft is rubbing on the steel braided brake line. I’m no expert but I believe that can become a big issue later on.

Is this the bad location you were talking about? I tried to get the best pictures I could.

Thank you,
Chase
 

DirtDonk

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The previous owner was my Dad;

That's great! But now I can't blame the PO for anything either!%)
The good news though, is that you know at least some of it's history and can still check on at least some things and out any kinks from 30 years of use.
Did it sit for a long time before you started driving it?
Is there other maintenance that he might remember doing, or not doing? I'm thinking of wheel bearings particularly. Front ones especially from getting hot often(?) and rears just from age and mileage.
We've talked about it here many times, that the stock original bearings are usually good for 100k miles, but after that it's a crap shoot until after 125k when you really should just change them out no matter what.

Now we have "age related molecular degeneration" to deal with as well.
I just threw numbers out there, but I figured the original grease was good for 30 years, but by the time the bearings reach 40-50+ years, it no longer matters how many miles are on them. Just change them out!

Now back to the brakes...

however, he did most of this work in the 90’s and does not remember what or why he did some things. And before he owned it, it was a ranch/work truck.

Being a ranch truck might mean it was meticulously maintained, OR just as likely was rode hard and put away wet and fixed when it broke. But if it wasn't broke, it kept working.
Mine did hard time on a Montana hunting club, and was rusted through all the usual spots on the body before it's fifth birthday and the rear wheel bearings (large size) were toast at 90k miles.

Unfortunately I do not have a place to work on it at the moment. I could wipe it down like you said, unless I bleed them in the street and that is illegal where I live.

Yeah, I was thinking about that when I wrote about what you could do yourself and wondering if it was going to be possible.
Nothing for it then but to have someone clean the whole system. However they would normally do that.
I've never personally had brake fluid that looked like that, but to me it has moisture and boiling (aeration) written all over it.

It looks like it is not mounted on the frame, but right next to the headers so I believe this is the problem you mentioned with keeping the same mounting as the stock ‘76/77 location.

Correct. That is the stock later location for a "combination valve" is the proper term I believe. It's an actual proportioning valve, as opposed to the standard distribution block of the '75 and earlier Broncos.
And yes, it's a problem. Nice headers though, and not as close as some I've seen. So either the headers afford more clearance, or the installer moved the prop valve over a bit.

Funny, but it looks like a standard aftermarket valve, but it also looks very old and has some of the right fittings for stock. I wonder if that's one of the odd factory Ford ones that was like a machined block. All the original ones I've ever seen were rough cast, whereas the aftermarket were machined out of a block of brass.
Does the plastic switch with the connector on it have one wire, or two wires? Looks like an original with two wires from here, which would mean that this is a stock Ford part.

No matter, it has to be moved further away from the heat.
The easiest location is to take that existing valve and simply bolt it to the wheel well just below the master cylinder. Then custom make some tubing to fit.
The best place for a valve like this in my opinion is right on the master cylinder, using one of the common brackets that do just this.

Top of my list these days though, is to use the same mounting method, but utilize an adjustable proportioning valve instead. For a stock Bronco this is not much of a benefit I don't think. But one that's been modified with lifts and larger tires can benefit from the fine-tuning of an adjustable valve.
Here's what we offer, to give you an idea of what I'm talking about:
https://www.wildhorses4x4.com/category/s?keyword=proportioning+valve
Note the #3067 and #3069 for the setups I'm describing.

We stopped offering the type of valve you have because at least through the recent aftermarket they have a high tendency to leak. Big enough pain, and since most Broncos have been modified at least a little over the years, the manually adjustable valves seem a good fit.
Yours is working and does not appear to leak (though hard to tell) so if you're happy with the braking bias front-to-rear, I would be tempted to keep it in order to reduce the cost of new parts slightly.

It also appears that the steering shaft is rubbing on the steel braided brake line. I’m no expert but I believe that can become a big issue later on.

Consider yourself an expert!
That's bad news in the automotive world, even with things that don't spin or move in obvious ways. Just the vibrations inherent in a running vehicle are enough in many cases to wear something out that is touching another item. Just takes longer sometimes, but a spinning steering shaft on a brake line is bad news.

Is this the bad location you were talking about? I tried to get the best pictures I could.

they are excellent pictures by the way! Helps a lot.
See what you can do to move it out of the way, or just re-plumb the whole thing to keep heat away from the parts.
A heat shield of some kind is another viable option. Even Ford installed an insulated aluminum heat shield on most vehicles. Not sure the Broncos ever got them, but I've added some from other vehicles to keep heat down in the stock locations.

Good luck!

Paul
 
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Kilroy007

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Jun 14, 2020
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You can blame the previous owner all you want! I know I do! And I know that the bearings have been replaced since he’s had it because I remember helping him with those in the early 2000’s (hate the smell of axle grease so I remember it vividly). Unfortunately, he also informed me today that the brake fluid is also around 20 years old. When he got it in ‘96, it did not have power brakes so he installed that which might explain the weird brake line routing.

There are a few things that I know he has done. I know it has a small James Duff lift with dual shock hoops. He had an SVO crate 302 installed around 1998, and the transmission/transfer case were rebuilt around the same time. These all have an estimated 20k miles at the most.

I have also done a lot lately. Around a year ago I went to replace the thermostat and leaky housing only to have one of the bolts break in the manifold. That was not fun and broke our extracting tool so we replaced the entire manifold. Then had carb issues when it was back together so we decided to have a shop instal FiTech EFI (what I could afford) and supporting fuel pump and new alternator. Within the past 3 months we installed new shackles/bushings and shocks all around as well as a new turn signal switch after replacing all bulbs and relays chasing lighting issues. And two weeks ago I had the hubs checked and re-packed with grease as well as the trans/diffs/t-case flushed with new fluid after I was informed that my dad never changed the front diff fluid so I was a little freaked out.

Now for use, it was used a lot and hard by my dad in the late 90’s and early 2000’s for hunting, off-roading, and towing other toys. Since about 2002, it was used occasionally on weekends and during the summer for beach trips with a brief year of me daily driving it around 2011. So I wouldn’t say it has sat without use for many years, but it definitely wasn’t used a lot. I am trying to fix that now.

Now for the valve, I will have to double check, but I do believe there are two wires coming from the switch. My plan for the moment is to have the system flushed and cleaned and preferably replace the steel braking in a way where it does not rub. I have some heat shield material from old vehicles that I plan to use to protect the valve. I am very used to and like the current brake bias so I will leave it as is as long as it doesn’t leak.

Again, thank you for all the help! I don’t have anymore pictures of it’s problems at the moment, but here is a pic of the bronco!

Chase

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DirtDonk

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47,552
That pic will do very nicely thank you! Great looking rig for sure. Nice stance, and a nice backdrop for a photo op. A few more like that and you'll have a calendar!

Sounds like a great family rig then. You've got a good handle on most of the other stuff already, and it sounds like you're on the right track with the brake plumbing as well.
Be great to be able to drive with confidence on those long downhills again.

Let us know how it all comes out.

Paul
 
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