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Front drums to disc......some valve/check ball to remove?

Quick & Dirty

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Feb 15, 2004
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A 4 wheel drum master cylinder will have check valves on both reservoirs. The fronts should be connected to the larger reservoir, but if someone re-plumbed it, they could have been connected the other way. Remove the valve from whichever is connected to the disks.
 

DirtDonk

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x2
But I would take as much time as needed and re-plumb the front brakes to the larger rear reservoir. That's how Ford and Bendix intended it, and that's a good enough reason right there, without getting into the technical minutiae of fluid volume and all that stuff.
Most of which I don't know anything about anyway. ;D

But the larger front calipers should be plumbed to the larger fluid capacity reservoir. There is probably enough movement even in the smaller reservoir, but why take the chance?

Paul
 

zoob

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So removed the check valve re-blead the brakes and the front calipers are still closed what would cause this??? Need help
 

Pokey71

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removed my valve seat. found rubber grommet and spring. NO ball or B. B. found. what do you guys think?
There was a disscussion a few years ago about this. Some newer MC didnt have a ball inside. I know because when I did mine the first time (disk and manual brakes) no "bb" came out after I ripped out the sheet metal screw.

So removed the check valve re-blead the brakes and the front calipers are still closed what would cause this??? Need help

Well the pad should ride on the disk at all times. does it drag while driving?
 

DirtDonk

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Did we discuss the brakes you have and what you've done already zoob?

If a GM brake setup:
1) Did you clearance the steering knuckle to fit the caliper?
2) are the calipers new/rebuilt, or old from the junkyard?
3) are they dragging hard (as pokey asked), or just barely?
4) If so, are you sure it's the brakes dragging, or could it be something else?
5) What master cylinder are you using? Sounds like a Ford unit, but it is stock or from another vehicle?
6) and last, but not least, if you replaced the master cylinder, did you verify that the pedal and rod are not too far out and pushing on the master piston? This would sometimes cause excessive dragging as well. Especially for a little bit after pushing the pedal.

Good luck.

Paul
 

zoob

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It is all new it's a bolt on I believe from a 79 f150, the MC is a brand new stock 68. Bought the set off eBay from horsepowersales believe it's the same one Tom sells. Truck is still on lift gonna re-bleed tomorrow. When I changed the MC I left the rod that was there as the new mc was a stock exact fit.
 

DirtDonk

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Well, for starters, they don't retract. At least not so much that you can measure it. And the rotors will drag a bit to the point that you can hear them scraping on the friction material.
So it's not like you're going to see them pull back when you let off the brakes. What pushes the pads away from the rotor is disc runout and seal pressure/friction as it "rolls" on the cylinder wall. Whatever amount the rotors are out of true is what you're going to get.
Now, some calipers are designed with seals that are shaped in such a way as to put a little rearward-english on the piston to pull it back just a few thousandths, but I don't believe the Ford calipers were designed with any extra in there, above and beyond what a normal rubber seal is going to pull it. Which is to say, not much. So probably not enough to see.

One thing you can do with Ford brakes though, to ensure that they are allowed to pull back any amount that they're designed to, is to dress down the sliding surfaces with a file. Then coat the sliding surfaces with brake anti-seize. That's going to get you where you need to be.

Another thing that crops up now and then is the positioning of the retaining block. How is yours installed? Got pics?
Should be in this order: 1. caliper mount - 2. anchor block - 3. reverse arch spring thingy (tabs down, away from caliper) - 4. caliper.
If you try to put the parts in any other way, and have to really jam then in there, then the calipers are literally going to be jammed in there and will never allow for normal back-and-forth movement.

So check to make sure yours are not slid in that way too.

Paul
 

zoob

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Dirtdonk thanks for all the help brakes are up and running, one last issue first time I step on the brakes there spongy thecsecond press instant pressure I stop on a dime, any ideas? Also when I removed the MC from the fire wall I noticed it didn't have the rubber grommet on the endvthat the brake rod goes through do I need this?
 

DirtDonk

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The rubber boot is not "necessary" per sé, but does keep a little extra junk out of there for a potentially longer seal life (especially with power brakes), and to keep brake fluid from entering the cabin when the seal does finally leak (only on manual brakes). Not a deal-breaker, but nice to have.
A bonus, if you want to look at it that way, is that you'll know right away whenever the seal does leak!

Some things that cause an initially spongy pedal might be, first and foremost, some additional air in the system somewhere. Second might be the rod length. Third might be a caliper that is pulling too far off(wtf!%)) the rotor. And old soft rubber hoses can do it too. A worn out master cylinder can do it too, but since this one is new, we'll have to assume it's ok until the very last thing. Not unheard of these days for new parts to be defective, but we'll hold out hope that this is not true in your case.
Rear brakes that are slightly out of adjustment can contribute greatly as well. To test that last theory, push the parking brake pedal part of the way down. Now drive it and see how the brakes feel.

If they firm up nicely with the parking brake applied, you need to tighten the rear shoes slightly.

The rod length shouldn't be an issue, since you're using stock to replace stock. However, it wouldn't be the first time there has been a variation. Didn't the new master come with a rod already in place? I know some don't, but I thought most did still. Either way, that's the least likely to be the issue. Just not impossible, so don't ignore it if nothing else works.

Air is just more bleeding to make sure. Bleeders on the calipers must be in the vertical, or close to vertical position to work. If yours are at a more acute angle, you might have to fiddle with it some more.
If any of the soft lines are old and worn, they might be allowing some air inside, or flexing enough to make the pedal spongy. This usually doesn't fix itself on the second pump however. Inspect them anyway, if you haven't already.
Make sure your bleeder hose is not allowing a little air back in every time you bleed. That's about all I can think of to do regarding air. Other than bench-bleeding the new master (did you do that?), you're pretty much limited to re-bleeding the wheel cylinders and calipers.

If it turns out that, for some reason, your Ford calipers are pulling back too far, for whatever reason, you might have to install a 2 lb. rated residual pressure check valve. Yeah, I know, you went to all the trouble of removing the old one in the master. But that was more like a 10 lb unit, and too much for a disc setup. But disc brakes can need some little residual pressure in the lines sometimes too.
I don't know anyone here, nor have I heard of anyone anywhere needing to install one on a Bronco. Hot Rods? Where the master is low? Yes. But Broncos? Might have some out there, but I haven't run across one yet.
You may be the first. But we'll hope for the other things instead. Like a little residual air, or rear brakes needing some tweaking.

Good luck.

Paul
 

DirtDonk

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Oh, and did you ever change the line from the small to the large reservoir? You didn't say, but if you did not, I would say this could be an issue with having to pump the brakes too.
If you haven't yet, I'd do it.

And are you using a proportioning valve from the '79 as well? If so, are you pulling the pin on the delay valve to bleed the fronts? If not, do so.

Paul
 

gunnibronco

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I'm not sure its the size of the reservoir that matters, its about how the m/c was designed to operate. Most your braking power should come from the front brakes, so the m/c was designed to apply more pressure (=more fluid) to the fronts than the rears. I've also been told that the m/c starts feeding the fronts before the rears too (like when you just start touching the brakes). My brakes are totally different than yours (Mustang h-boost & t-bird calipers), but the function of any m/c is designed to push more fluid to the fronts than the rears. If the m/c isn't pushing enough fluid to the fronts to "fill up" the calipers, then you won't get much pressure. It may be that the m/c was filling up the old drum wheel cylinders, adequately, even though it was plumbed backwards. But now that you've switched to calipers, the mistake is more evident.

I just finished an axle swap, and during the swap I was told that I had the brake lines mixed up (on a 99 Mustang m/c- all one reservoir, not 2 separate ones). I changed the brake lines to what I was told was correct (but wasn't), and I couldn't get adequate front brakes. I switched BACK to what I had originally, and the brakes worked great.

Hope that helps. I'm not an expert, still learning (obviously).

Chad
 

zoob

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Alright so I re/plumbed in that the fronts are now connected to the correct resivoir but when I step on the pedel the first push is mush then the second one is nice and stiff! Could this just be air bubble?
 

Pokey71

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Alright so I re/plumbed in that the fronts are now connected to the correct resivoir but when I step on the pedel the first push is mush then the second one is nice and stiff! Could this just be air bubble?

If its manual brakes then ya.. thats normal.

EDIT:
The disc brakes are only going to be noticeable when they are wet or off road. On the street they will feel the same as a drum set up.
 

Pokey71

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Yup any one have a secret I bleed these things like three times farthest to closest of the mc

Speed bleeders. they make bleeding brakes easy.

I edited my post. refer back to that.
 
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