Already Have Dual Front Shocks...Is Switching To Front Hoops Worth It?

[Audifan]

I'm getting ready to order a helwig sway bar for the front, some duff extended radius arms and a new set of duff coils. And I decided I might as well upgrade to Bilstein 5100 shocks at the same time.

When I called Toms to order the sway bar and shocks, after explaining my current dual front shock set up to Jason, he suggested I upgrade to front hoops at the same time.

So I did a bunch of reading about front hoops here on the forum, but can't figure out if switching/upgrading to hoops is worth it for me.

My bronco is 90% a street driven and 10% (if that), light trail use, so as near as I can tell the additional articulation I gain from hoops isn't gonna benefit me.

So, my question to all you Bronco experts... Do I have anything to gain from switching from my current dual shock set up to front hoops?

I've posted a picture of my current set up below.

Thanks in advance.

 

[.94 OR]

If you aren't getting off road much, I wonder if having dual shocks would help you much anyway. I went from dual shocks setup similar to yours to a single Bilstein 5100 and the Hellwig. Since I already had the lower shock mount welded to the front C cap, I just used that and made my own links plus used an F250 shock mount for a longer shock. It rides very nice around town and hope to get out in the woods later this summer.

 

[SHX669]

Hmm - if you're going to the extended radius arms - but not for more articulation -? The hoops would allow more shock travel .
I used to install my dual shocks when I towed my small travel trailer then remove them when the camping season was over but i've started leaving them on . The Bronco seems to handle better and track better - and I have the 5100 Bilstiens. Something to do with the front colis and radius arms- especially if lifted

 

[Audifan]

Hmm - if you're going to the extended radius arms - but not for more articulation -? The hoops would allow more shock travel .

I know I gain more articulation with the Extended radius arms, which is a nice bonus, but my main reason for them is to stop tires from hitting the stock radius arms as well as improved handling on the road.

The entire purpose of this batch of mods is to improve handling and ride quality.

My question about the shock hoop is that from my limited understanding...the ONLY gain I would be getting by installing the hoops, is more articulation...which in my case I don't really need.

At least thats my current thought process (and the reason I posted) ...am I missing the boat?

 

[.94 OR]

The hoops should allow dual shocks both mounted behind the spring perch. The Hellwig doesn't fit with a front mounted shock. Shock length of your choice.

 

[DirtDonk]

Normally you don't "need" dual shocks in any configuration for the street. But they do naturally firm up things and that can offer better cornering especially when bumpy. At the expense of a firmer ride of course.
Optimally, equally valved shocks should be used, both with lighter valving perhaps, to dial in the benefits the way you want for a particular vehicle. I'm not sure how much that last tiny bit of tuning matters if one shock is in front an done shock is behind the spring (different leverage factors from the radius arm) but most hoops offer two positions behind the spring these days.
Which also has the benefit of getting rid of the front lower mount so it does not get in the way of your anti-swaybar.

Another small side benefit of the hoops is the triangulated support they add to the spring tower by welding them to the spring tower and then their spread out feet to the frame.
It's not exactly like adding a strut tower brace, but it's a similar, if lesser result. I bet if we put a GoPro under there we'd see the spring tower flexing a little bit. Adding the hoop should reduce that flex and make the suspension movement more linear.
Can you feel that? Some can, some might not.

Whether it's enough to really improve anything over a properly setup single shock setup is hard to quantify. Our frames are fairly robust, and your longer arms move the location that the twisting torque is applied to the frame further away from the spring mounts. Not sure what that does, but a suspension design engineer could probably put some values on it.

So while there likely other benefits to a hoop vs the old style mounts, you still have to decide if you actually need dual shocks or not.

Paul

 

[Broncobowsher]

For your use, I am questioning the long arms more. You are loosing anti-dive properties in order to gain articulation. But you describe 90% street, which I would prefer a better anti-dive in the front.

 

[Audifan]

Normally you don't "need" dual shocks in any configuration for the street. But they do naturally firm up things and that can offer better cornering especially when bumpy. At the expense of a firmer ride of course.
Optimally, equally valved shocks should be used, both with lighter valving perhaps, to dial in the benefits the way you want for a particular vehicle. I'm not sure how much that last tiny bit of tuning matters if one shock is in front an done shock is behind the spring (different leverage factors from the radius arm) but most hoops offer two positions behind the spring these days.
Which also has the benefit of getting rid of the front lower mount so it does not get in the way of your anti-swaybar.

Another small side benefit of the hoops is the triangulated support they add to the spring tower by welding them to the spring tower and then their spread out feet to the frame.
It's not exactly like adding a strut tower brace, but it's a similar, if lesser result. I bet if we put a GoPro under there we'd see the spring tower flexing a little bit. Adding the hoop should reduce that flex and make the suspension movement more linear.
Can you feel that? Some can, some might not.

Whether it's enough to really improve anything over a properly setup single shock setup is hard to quantify. Our frames are fairly robust, and your longer arms move the location that the twisting torque is applied to the frame further away from the spring mounts. Not sure what that does, but a suspension design engineer could probably put some values on it.

So while there likely other benefits to a hoop vs the old style mounts, you still have to decide if you actually need dual shocks or not.

Paul

Paul, as usual, thank you for the detailed info. Much appreciated.

For your use, I am questioning the long arms more. You are loosing anti-dive properties in order to gain articulation. But you describe 90% street, which I would prefer a better anti-dive in the front.

Interesting. Thanks for the insight...now I have something else to research

SO, I'm guessing that if I went with the Duff TREX arms that are the stock length, I would not lose the ant-dive characteristics?

 

[SteveL]

You say you want longer arms for better handling on the street. I'm not sure if the extra body roll they add out ways making bumps a little softer. Also any relief its adding over bumps is going to disappear if you're gonna double shock it. For shocks you're probably better off with single f-250 mounts up front and buy a better (single) bilstien or fox shock with the $$ you save. Then you can fine tune your ride quality. Also if it's a softer ride you're looking for you can go with rubber radios arm bushings instead of urethanes.

 

[Audifan]

You say you want longer arms for better handling on the street. I'm not sure if the extra body roll they add out ways making bumps a little softer. Also any relief its adding over bumps is going to disappear if you're gonna double shock it. For shocks you're probably better off with single f-250 mounts up front and buy a better (single) bilstien or fox shock with the $$ you save. Then you can fine tune your ride quality. Also if it's a softer ride you're looking for you can go with rubber radios arm bushings instead of urethanes.

Good insight.

I spoke with James Duff this morning, talking about hoops and he said that his hoops interfere with a Hellwigg sway bar anyway and would require modification to make it work.

He recommended switching to one of their dual shock towers as it puts the shock behind the coil and can run either 1 or 2 shocks.

 

[DirtDonk]

You are going to get much of your cornering neutrality back with the use of the Helwig stuff. So the longer arms are not something to worry about at this point I don't think.
Yes they do just what the others have said, but they're already installed it sounds like and I would try to fine tune with them first. Unless you have not taken that step yet?

I would not even bother to change the shock mount either, other than to use a hoop for the strength. You don't need the longer shocks just for the length, we're just talking about the hoop concept itself in that case.
The F250 mounts mentioned are a great, inexpensive way to gain longer shocks and more suspension travel. But you don't need more travel, so changing the mount just for that is not needed.
As you said, the arms were for turning radius/tire clearance and not wheel travel.

The only other reason to use the taller F250 mount (or hoops) would be if you could not find a particularly valved shock in the stock mounting type. That alone would be worth changing the mounts for (to either type) I would think.
And there probably are more choices in shocks that are longer with eyes at both ends, vs shocks that are shorter with a stem at the top. Haven't looked lately
But then it comes down again, to choosing the correct valving based on what others have experienced. Not just for length.

I've seen simple mounts that are "half-hoops" that are pretty slick. The Duff shock tower is actually very cool, but it does not have any advantage for you particularly, over a stock mount or an F250 mount. It allows for single or dual mounting behind the spring, allows for longer travel shocks, but goes right back to your question of is there any benefit for you? Yes, but really only in it's ability to mount a second shock if you decide to go that way.
At that point (mounting just a tower) you might as well keep the stock mount. Again, unless you find that eye/eye shocks are better for you. Is that what they use? I did not check the style of mounting, but am "assuming" that it uses eye/eye shocks as well.

So the Duff mount does have that other advantage over the simpler and less expensive F250 mounts. Like a hoop, if you find that a single shock is not enough for your driving conditions after all, you can easily mount a second shock later down the road without having to change a mount.

Here again though, to me it comes back to one of your early questions. Is there any benefit to a hoop.
I say yes. It's slight, and nobody's ever qualified it that I know of, but I still say it stiffens up the structure and reduces frame flex.
Whether that's an actual advantage or not is up for your debate.

Paul

 

[Audifan]

You are going to get much of your cornering neutrality back with the use of the Helwig stuff. So the longer arms are not something to worry about at this point I don't think.
Yes they do just what the others have said, but they're already installed it sounds like and I would try to fine tune with them first. Unless you have not taken that step yet?

I would not even bother to change the shock mount either, other than to use a hoop for the strength. You don't need the longer shocks just for the length, we're just talking about the hoop concept itself in that case.
The F250 mounts mentioned are a great, inexpensive way to gain longer shocks and more suspension travel. But you don't need more travel, so changing the mount just for that is not needed.
As you said, the arms were for turning radius/tire clearance and not wheel travel.

The only other reason to use the taller F250 mount (or hoops) would be if you could not find a particularly valved shock in the stock mounting type. That alone would be worth changing the mounts for (to either type) I would think.
And there probably are more choices in shocks that are longer with eyes at both ends, vs shocks that are shorter with a stem at the top. Haven't looked lately
But then it comes down again, to choosing the correct valving based on what others have experienced. Not just for length.

I've seen simple mounts that are "half-hoops" that are pretty slick. The Duff shock tower is actually very cool, but it does not have any advantage for you particularly, over a stock mount or an F250 mount. It allows for single or dual mounting behind the spring, allows for longer travel shocks, but goes right back to your question of is there any benefit for you? Yes, but really only in it's ability to mount a second shock if you decide to go that way.
At that point (mounting just a tower) you might as well keep the stock mount. Again, unless you find that eye/eye shocks are better for you. Is that what they use? I did not check the style of mounting, but am "assuming" that it uses eye/eye shocks as well.

So the Duff mount does have that other advantage over the simpler and less expensive F250 mounts. Like a hoop, if you find that a single shock is not enough for your driving conditions after all, you can easily mount a second shock later down the road without having to change a mount.

Here again though, to me it comes back to one of your early questions. Is there any benefit to a hoop.
I say yes. It's slight, and nobody's ever qualified it that I know of, but I still say it stiffens up the structure and reduces frame flex.
Whether that's an actual advantage or not is up for your debate.

Paul

Hey Paul,

Currently nothing has been installed yet or actually ordered. I'm still running the stock radius arms and the dual Rancho 9000's in my picture above.

The only reason the Duff Shock tower came up, was because when I was talking to James about his extended arms and what SteveL said above, I mentioned that I was going to install a Hellwig front sway bar as well.

James then told me that most full front hoops including his, cause interference with the Hellwig sway bar and requires a bunch of modification to make it work. he then suggested the shock tower.

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I personally would be totally happy staying with my current shock mount set up as aside from wanting to ditch the Rancho's I'm happy with it.

But again from what I understand, the Hellwig sway bar won't work with a front mounted shock.

So, I guess I have to make some kind of change if I want to run the sway bar...of which I have no personal experience, but everyone I've talked to that has it, LOVES it.


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As for dual shocks, I'm not afraid to admit that I do like how it looks with 2 shocks, and am a bit of a sucker for cool factor, So if keeping it is possible and not detrimental then thats what I'd like to do, but if it's gonna make that much of a difference to switch back to 1 shock, then I'm a big boy and can do that too.

 

[welndmn]

Most kits came with dual shocks as all the shocks used then were "White box" shocks, these are not exotic like shocks. Broncos do really well with 1 quality shock, or 2 "White box" shocks.

For a rig that's not off roaded that much, I too agree that the T rex arm would be a good choice.

 

[LilMixedUp]

While I haven't used the Duff dual shock tower I like the looks... But just to add to your delima, I'm running two Bilstien's with Duff long arms, but with a Sexton hoop. It allows dual shocks behind the front spring and doesn't interfer with Helwig sway bar. If possible, I'd suggest finding a member close by that has a simular set-up as you with the exception of running long arms. Because proof is in the pudding "so-to-speak" drive and see for yourself, because it makes a difference in ride and handling... personally I love my long arms and unless I'm building a LUBR I'll always upgrade.

 

[Audifan]

While I haven't used the Duff dual shock tower I like the looks... But just to add to your delima, I'm running two Bilstien's with Duff long arms, but with a Sexton hoop. It allows dual shocks behind the front spring and doesn't interfer with Helwig sway bar. If possible, I'd suggest finding a member close by that has a simular set-up as you with the exception of running long arms. Because proof is in the pudding "so-to-speak" drive and see for yourself, because it makes a difference in ride and handling... personally I love my long arms and unless I'm building a LUBR I'll always upgrade.

Do you have a link to a Sexton hoop? I don't see anything on the sexton offroad site, and a google search isn't showing any examples either.

 

[Audifan]

So the debate continues...

I talked with Duff again and they said that their dual shock tower can work with 1 or 2 shocks and with either their Trex or their extended radius arms.

He also suggested that I give KrawlersEdge a call because they have been doing some cool stuff with hoops, sway bars and behind the coil shock mounts.

---

So, I called Thomas Kincer, and had a nice chat with him about my situation, and he showed me their new dual shock mount that attaches to the top of the coil bucket and down to the frame and allows 2 eyelet shocks to mount behind the coils.

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Both of them said dual or single shocks would be fine.

And also suggested that with my full size spare (35x13.5R15), 23gallon tank and protofab rear bumper, that I might want to run 2 shocks on the rear to support that weight better.

WELL SHIT...now I have something else to consider/figure out :-[

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I think in order to make the right decision (yes I know it's really personal preference), I need to understand what my best options/configurations of single shock set ups would be.

From what I've gathered from comments in this thread and reading the forums, if I go single shock, my best option would be to upgrade to what some call an "exotic" shock? Something with a reservoir??

So, are my choices in this case:
1. Bilstein 7100
2. Fox (no idea model)
3. King (no idea model)

I'm sure these are apples and oranges, but for my needs is one better than the other?

Also, would 1 of these shocks be enough to support the weight in the rear, or should I still consider 2? What happens if I go 2 on each corner?

And finally, if I go with a single "exotic" shock should I use my existing stock shock tower or swap out for a f250 or some other extended tower?

Any and all insight will be welcome and appreciated.

 

[SteveL]

If you get the extended radius arms you probably want the longer shocks so they dont become limiting straps. If you stay with stock length arms a good set of stock length shock should work with bump stops. If bilstien 5100s aren't enough and you start looking at 7100s you're in the same price rang of fox shock so it's worth a look.

 

[Audifan]

If you get the extended radius arms you probably want the longer shocks so they dont become limiting straps. If you stay with stock length arms a good set of stock length shock should work with bump stops. If bilstien 5100s aren't enough and you start looking at 7100s you're in the same price rang of fox shock so it's worth a look.

Thanks Steve. Are 7100's or Fox's overkill? I believe in your previous post, you mentioned that with the cost savings I could/should move up to a better shock.

 

[DirtDonk]

I don't think anything we can ever say will be 100% accurate specifically for you and your Bronco. We're just giving you experiences, opinions and best guesses. Only you will know when you have alighted on the perfect combination.

You do not need an exotic shock. Not sure why anyone would say that, other than it has worked for them. But the same can be said for a lot more of us using standard shocks. Unless you consider a Bilstein exotic simply because they do make reservoir shocks. But then, so does Rancho and quite a few other companies.
It's the design of the valving characteristics, not the features that are going to help you.

A remote reservoir has two functions. It allows for longer travel in a particular length shock body, and allows for cooler running under stress of hard use.
You are needing neither I'm thinking? Doubt you'll ever stress your shocks to the fade or breaking point. And doubt you need the additional travel of a reservoir shock.

Now, if you can only find the performance you desire due to a particular valving package in an exotic shock, then that's the reason to go down that road.
But you will never know based just on what others are telling you. Only you can find out what you like, based on what you use and compare it to others. Which you may never get the chance to do obviously, since most of us no longer put enough miles on their rigs to wear out a set of shocks. So the only way would be to simply try different setups and compare.

I realize that what you're doing here by asking us is to narrow down that field so that hopefully you won't have to do a Ten-Shock-Shootout and pick the winner. But as you've found, and as with just about anything when building an essentially complete custom vehicle to your desires, it's all just guesswork and ultimately you just have to make the decisions to try this, that, or the other. And hope it's what you would have liked best the first time.

Too many variables, which means too many possible "correct" answers.
After all, in the immortal words uttered on SNL... "It's a desert topping, AND a floor wax!"

Paul

 

[SteveL]

I just figure with the savings of going with a f-250 mount or even the stock mounts and deleting 4 shock from the equation there's so.e money to spare. For what you're doing I'm guessing 5100s or even rancho 9000s will probably do pretty good. If you want better and more adjustment you got 7100s or fox. The 7100 and fox are also rebuildable. Also keep in mind not all 4 need to be the same.you may be able to go cheap in the rear if you dont haul too much weight.