Won't start - Fresh 302 w/efi

[Izzy]

Paul,

Essentially yes to each question you had. Explorer Cam and yes as I was turning the crank by hand, she could feel pressure on both the exhaust and compression stroke.

I ahve been worried that might mean something was wrong as well.

 

[DirtDonk]

Ok, just watched your video. And in my opinion, it's cranking WAAAYYYY slower than it should be.
With a good running engine, it might be able to start at that speed, but it sure isn't helping. And since we don't know how everything is yet, it could be at least a contributing factor.

It is a bit hard to tell, with the way the sound is on the video, but it sure sounds slow to me. And the long periods of time between the visible spark event, as indicated by the light (being held by a none-too-happy, but capable and cooperative girlfriend I might add! ;D ) is, as suspected, merely taking a long time to come back around due to the super slow cranking speed.

And since you have a timing light, have you checked where the timing is at? Just like you see while cranking, you can aim the light at the timing marks and see where you are.
Easy as that! So do that now, before anything else, and see if you find the timing marks.

So, you've got a super loud fuel pump doing it's priming thing.
You've got an even spark giving a full light in a consistent manner on the light.
By now you've verified you timing.
You've got fuel pressure... But is it getting to the plugs?

Was this with all plugs pulled? I sure hope not! But, if not, pull the plugs while the headers are off, check them for wet fuel (they should be wet by now I would think) to make sure that gas is being fed into each cylinder.
See how easily the motor spins with the plugs out. With them out, your starter should spin that puppy up pronto.

While you've got nothing better to do, put the light's clamp on every plug wire and spin the motor to make sure that spark is going on at every plug.

Your slow spinning, though it doesn't have that telltale hesitation of too much advance, could still be due to the distributor being too far out.
With that funny compression on the exhaust stroke, you may have to check some more things.
That plug being blown clean out the intake plenum can only happen one way. A backfire into the intake through an open valve, due to improper ignition timing or valve-event.

Last question for this post... Did you recondition this engine, or was it installed "as-is" in the condition you received it in? If so, what kind of mileage and what visible condition was it in?

 

[DirtDonk]

Something else for the EFI gurus. Your fuel pump came on twice in that clip. Once when you first turned the key, and next either when you went to turn it off, or when the engine stopped cranking.
That doesn't sound normal to me. Anybody have any thoughts on that?
Could it be due to the excessive cranking going on, or something else?

Paul

 

[Izzy]

I had the block and heads reworked. We went 20 over on the block, new pistons. The heads got a valve job. And of course all seals etc were done.

I will start going through the check list you provided tomorrow. I'm wiped out for tonight and need to hit the sack.

I appreciate the help guys. More to come tomorrow.

 

[DirtDonk]

Wait!!!!! Not yet!
Well, ok, it's later for you than me, so work is going to come up real quick.

But if you've got a quick sec, take a few beauty shots of your whole engine compartment and e-mail them to me so I can oggle that nice build while you sleep away the hours you could be working on your Bronco!

Just kidding. But the pics would still be nice.

Later.

Paul

 

[Izzy]

Paul,

Check your email. I read somewhere that if the starter is not grounded properly, it would cause slow starts. But the instructions didn't say anything about grounding it anywhere. Thoughts?

 

[DirtDonk]

That's correct, but it's grounded through the engine block usually. The attention to that detail though, is what they meant by "proper grounding" and why I always recommend putting the engine ground from the battery as close to the starter motor as is humanly possible. Your engine should even have a nice threaded hole just in front of the starter on the lower edge of the block at the pan rail.

From your e-mail, it sounds like you're good. But that "jumper" wire you used, was it a large gauge wire? Or just some regular wire you had laying around?
And where does your main ground go?

I guess I'll see that all int he pics. I'll go check them out now. You can go to sleep now. I'll quit whining about starters whining for now.

Paul

 

[DirtDonk]

Ok, grab a drink and some popcorn. Here goes...

1.Right off the top. You've got a good-looking pair of ground wires there, but with that beautifully painted engine block, how good is the contact? Probably good enough through the bolt threads, but... Well, you never know.
So I would change the location from there at the front of the block to farther back near the starter. If you have to even temporarily put it under one of the starter bolts, do it. Worth the peace of mind to know you've got the best ground circuit possible.

2. Ok, I see you did sort of lay one down on the mounting stud of the starter. Just make that one semi-permanent at least and bolt it down tight. Then you'll know you've done the best you can. Run a nut up that stud and tighten it down.
And electrical tape is not a suitable "clamp" to get a good connection between the two cables.
Upon third viewing, it looks like your ground cable is sandwiched between the engine block and serpentine bracket. Is that correct?
If so, you're over-thinking things. You don't want anything there. The bracket is now mis-aligned with the other one, and you might have belt jumping issues, or stress risers that you don't want. Could even crack the aluminum bracket.
Or maybe none of the above, but why take the chance? Pull the bolt, pull the cable, tighten the bolt up tight to the block so things fit the way God and Henry Ford intended. Put the ground somewhere else.
If you want to keep the current cables, run the short one to the alternator mounting bolt up top, then the "jumper" back to the starter as mentioned before.
that oughta do it for that part. Might not help the starter, but it's going to help your overall assembly.

3. That's just the engine though. See that little pigtail (wire extension) coming off of the negative battery cable lug? Hook it up!
Somewhere, anywhere. But do it. I suppose you might have some other grounds to the body, but since you need super-groovy grounding, use all the assets. Crimp a 10ga wire into that yellow butt-splice and connect the other end to your fender well.

4. Where does the big black wire from your alternator go? Directly to the battery? I can only see one end in the pics, so wanted to check.
An speaking of grounding things, I would say you'll want to run a separate ground from the alternator (case or bolt) to the body because of all the paint on the engine again.
Unless you've ground all the mounting surfaces free of paint, it won't be getting a good ground.

5. What is the gray fusible link hooked to, and what is that extra Red wire on the starter relay's battery post? I see the fusible link, AND a Red wire. Is that the RJM relay cluster wire? And the fusible link is hooked to the Centech Red wire? I would guess so, now that I think about it. But I'm rambling about now...

6. Even though this has nothing to do with your starting (or not...), when you get the chance, pull your three ground wires there by the driver's headlight and scrape the paint off underneath them. Get the metal nice and clean, re-attach them with the screw, then paint over the top of them.
I hate to make you scrape paint in that super-sanitary engine compartment, but it's for your own good ;D that I say these things.
Once you've give a quick spritz of black paint of the top of them, you'll hardly notice the blemish. And they'll ground much better for the long-haul.

7. Just out of curiosity, what are those two red wires running along the frame rail under your headers on the passenger side? Can they be re-routed to be farther away from the header tubes? Be worth it.
I know you said much of the wiring was "temporary" while you got it running. I'm just pointing out anything I see, so it's always there.

8. I see you have your distributor aligned so that number one is at 11 o'clock when facing back towards the firewall . Is that right? Then the rest run lefty-loosey (counter-clockwise). Also correct?

9. Are those breathers in the valve covers? Or caps? Either way, do you have a PCV valve in the back of the lower intake manifold and a return line run from one of the valve covers to a port on the throttle-body?
I know we've covered that point ad-nauseum, but it's always worth a confirmation. See Ransil's "90-10" comment.

10. What is that Red wire on the top of the alternator under the charge wire? And why is the Yellow wire not there? Do you have the Green w/red wire attached to the key-on wire in the RJM harness?

11. And speaking of the engine harness, did you orient the jumpers correctly to match the ECU type with the harness? In other words, if it's a manual ECU (such as an A9L for instance) did you jumper the harness for a manual transmission? And an auto ECU with the auto orientation? No matter what tranny you're using, you have to match the harness to the ECU TYPE.

That's enough for now. Is that clapping and cheering I hear?
Some of that did not deal with the starting issue at all, but from looking at the pictures, I felt they bore mentioning.

Good luck. See you back here on the next shift.

PaulB

 

[broncoitis]

Izzy....Izzzzzy........Izzzzzzzyyyyy! Come on buddy, you can get this thing goin. ;D

All good advice up top for sure. Follow there lead and they will get you there.

Those headers though sound like a PITA. Especially if you gotta take off the passenger side header to get the spark plug out!

 

[Izzy]

I answered each question and used Bold and Italized font.

1.Right off the top. You've got a good-looking pair of ground wires there, but with that beautifully painted engine block, how good is the contact? Probably good enough through the bolt threads, but... Well, you never know.
So I would change the location from there at the front of the block to farther back near the starter. If you have to even temporarily put it under one of the starter bolts, do it. Worth the peace of mind to know you've got the best ground circuit possible. - So I can ground this right on the stud coming off the bolt mounting the starter right? I will go buy a longer cable today and redo that ground. After reading more of this post, looks like you are suggesting I run one ground from battery to one of the bolts that mount the alternator to the bracket and then one to the starter. Should I run both to the battery or daisy chain them?

2. Ok, I see you did sort of lay one down on the mounting stud of the starter. Just make that one semi-permanent at least and bolt it down tight. Then you'll know you've done the best you can. Run a nut up that stud and tighten it down.
And electrical tape is not a suitable "clamp" to get a good connection between the two cables.
Upon third viewing, it looks like your ground cable is sandwiched between the engine block and serpentine bracket. Is that correct?
If so, you're over-thinking things. You don't want anything there. The bracket is now mis-aligned with the other one, and you might have belt jumping issues, or stress risers that you don't want. Could even crack the aluminum bracket.
Or maybe none of the above, but why take the chance? Pull the bolt, pull the cable, tighten the bolt up tight to the block so things fit the way God and Henry Ford intended. Put the ground somewhere else.
If you want to keep the current cables, run the short one to the alternator mounting bolt up top, then the "jumper" back to the starter as mentioned before.
that oughta do it for that part. Might not help the starter, but it's going to help your overall assembly. - I put it there because there was a gap there even without the cable there so I figured I'd get a good ground but I will move it. Again, to the starter is a good permenant place or not a good idea?

3. That's just the engine though. See that little pigtail (wire extension) coming off of the negative battery cable lug? Hook it up!
Somewhere, anywhere. But do it. I suppose you might have some other grounds to the body, but since you need super-groovy grounding, use all the assets. Crimp a 10ga wire into that yellow butt-splice and connect the other end to your fender well. - Ok, will do. That is easy.

4. Where does the big black wire from your alternator go? Directly to the battery? I can only see one end in the pics, so wanted to check.
An speaking of grounding things, I would say you'll want to run a separate ground from the alternator (case or bolt) to the body because of all the paint on the engine again.
Unless you've ground all the mounting surfaces free of paint, it won't be getting a good ground. - Yes, the black wire goes to the positive side of the battery. I know, wrong color but wire is wire.

5. What is the gray fusible link hooked to, and what is that extra Red wire on the starter relay's battery post? I see the fusible link, AND a Red wire. Is that the RJM relay cluster wire? And the fusible link is hooked to the Centech Red wire? I would guess so, now that I think about it. But I'm rambling about now... The grey fuse link hooks to the red battery wire from the centech harness feeding the body wires. The other red one is from the RJM EFI harness which the instructions stated to put it there.

6. Even though this has nothing to do with your starting (or not...), when you get the chance, pull your three ground wires there by the driver's headlight and scrape the paint off underneath them. Get the metal nice and clean, re-attach them with the screw, then paint over the top of them.
I hate to make you scrape paint in that super-sanitary engine compartment, but it's for your own good ;D that I say these things.
Once you've give a quick spritz of black paint of the top of them, you'll hardly notice the blemish. And they'll ground much better for the long-haul.Easy enough

7. Just out of curiosity, what are those two red wires running along the frame rail under your headers on the passenger side? Can they be re-routed to be farther away from the header tubes? Be worth it.
I know you said much of the wiring was "temporary" while you got it running. I'm just pointing out anything I see, so it's always there. These are the two wires that run to the mini starter. The big gage wire goes to the positive side of the solenoid and the smaller one goes to the S on the solenoid, those are the only two wires for the mini starter. Did I get that right?

8. I see you have your distributor aligned so that number one is at 11 o'clock when facing back towards the firewall . Is that right? Then the rest run lefty-loosey (counter-clockwise). Also correct? Yes, I checked this a million times.

9. Are those breathers in the valve covers? Or caps? Either way, do you have a PCV valve in the back of the lower intake manifold and a return line run from one of the valve covers to a port on the throttle-body?
I know we've covered that point ad-nauseum, but it's always worth a confirmation. See Ransil's "90-10" comment.I capped the valve covers and have the PCV valve in the back of the manifold running to one of the ports on the upper plenum. I do not have a return line coming from the valve cover. Do I need one?

10. What is that Red wire on the top of the alternator under the charge wire? And why is the Yellow wire not there? Do you have the Green w/red wire attached to the key-on wire in the RJM harness? That red wire is missleading. The red is actually the butt connector for the yellow wire that just jumpers from the RJM harness adapter to the charge wire. The green/red wire is attached to the key-on wire via the Centech harness.

11. And speaking of the engine harness, did you orient the jumpers correctly to match the ECU type with the harness? In other words, if it's a manual ECU (such as an A9L for instance) did you jumper the harness for a manual transmission? And an auto ECU with the auto orientation? No matter what tranny you're using, you have to match the harness to the ECU TYPE. Yes, I have the A9L so I used the manual jump wire and it is connected for sure.

That's enough for now. Is that clapping and cheering I hear?
Some of that did not deal with the starting issue at all, but from looking at the pictures, I felt they bore mentioning.

Good luck. See you back here on the next shift.

PaulB

I really appreciate all the help guys. If I don't get this thing running by next week, I may be shipping it somewhere to finish. That's my goal\deadline. Also, I got a friend coming over to help me double check the valves and help me confirm once again TDC. All this talk about feeling pressure on the exhaust side has me really worried that I did something wrong during the build seeing as this was the first time I have ever built an engine. Bad news is he can't come over until tomorrow.

 

[DirtDonk]

I'll look at your replies one-by-one in a minute, but thought I could give this advice.
When you can take a break, just go out to the driveway and chill-out for a minute or two.
Like this guy...

 

[DirtDonk]

- So I can ground this right on the stud coming off the bolt mounting the starter right? I will go buy a longer cable today and redo that ground. After reading more of this post, looks like you are suggesting I run one ground from battery to one of the bolts that mount the alternator to the bracket and then one to the starter. Should I run both to the battery or daisy chain them?

I was only suggesting the daisy-chain because you already had those wires and I was trying to avoid you having to go out and buy new ones. I know they're cheap, but you're busy enough!
So yes, you can either run a singe one straight to the starter bolt (or that hole on the block), OR daisy-chain the one from the battery to alternator bolt, then the bolt to the starter. You don't have to have them both come to the battery. The big one to the alternator is just overkill anyway, but when using the one you've got, you do as the Romans do.
A good ground to that alternator bolt is a good thing anyway, it's just not an absolute necessity if the brackets are grounding to the block.
Hmm, for that reason, maybe best to daisy-chain them for now after all.

2. - I put it there because there was a gap there even without the cable there so I figured I'd get a good ground but I will move it. Again, to the starter is a good permenant place or not a good idea?

Hmm,not sure why you would have a gap there at all. Any Explorer serp gurus out there that can explain that?
Yes, the starter mounting bolt is a perfectly fine permanent mounting point. The only reason that I usually suggest the bolt hole in the side of the block (near the starter) is that it's more convenient when you don't have to mess with the wire to remove the starter at some point down the road.
No big deal though. A quick wire removal is a small price to pay for the best grounding scheme.

3. Handled.

4. - Yes, the black wire goes to the positive side of the battery. I know, wrong color but wire is wire.

No problem on the color. Ford uses black too. Theirs has a Red stripe at least, but as you say, wire is wire. I was merely wondering where it was attached since I could not see it in the pic.
Someday soon, a 175 amp Mega-Fuse in that line would be a good idea. For now though, you've got other things to think about.

5. - The grey fuse link hooks to the red battery wire from the centech harness feeding the body wires. The other red one is from the RJM EFI harness which the instructions stated to put it there.

Perfect.

6. - Easy enough

7. - These are the two wires that run to the mini starter. The big gage wire goes to the positive side of the solenoid and the smaller one goes to the S on the solenoid, those are the only two wires for the mini starter. Did I get that right?

Yep, no problem. However, the large wire just didn't look that large, so I mistook it for a non-starter wire. I'll look again, but is that a battery cable sized wire? At least a 4ga wire then?
I suppose a 6ga would be "adequate", but 4ga is better. Remember, more is better when it comes to battery/starter cables.

8. - Yes, I checked this a million times.

Yeah, I know. Sorry for the re-hash. But these things have to be discussed over and over when everything seems to be right, but you can't get the engine started. And it'll probably get mentioned again before this is over.
In fact, I think I hear it being asked again over on the other thread? Yep...

9. - I capped the valve covers and have the PCV valve in the back of the manifold running to one of the ports on the upper plenum. I do not have a return line coming from the valve cover. Do I need one?

Absolutely. The clean air needs a place to get back into the crankcase after the PCV sucks the bad stuff out. You'll need to have one valve cover with an open port/nipple/fitting (3/8" diameter) to run a hose from there to the TB tube (if there is one.
I'll have to look at your intake system a little closer, but most Ford throttle bodies have a curved 3/8" pipe just ahead of the throttle blades for that reason. Some Fords have the fitting in the plastic cold-air tube, others elsewhere. But they're always between the air filter and the throttle body.

10. - That red wire is missleading. The red is actually the butt connector for the yellow wire that just jumpers from the RJM harness adapter to the charge wire. The green/red wire is attached to the key-on wire via the Centech harness.

Sweet...

11. - Yes, I have the A9L so I used the manual jump wire and it is connected for sure.

Double-sweet...

I really appreciate all the help guys. If I don't get this thing running by next week, I may be shipping it somewhere to finish. That's my goal\deadline. Also, I got a friend coming over to help me double check the valves and help me confirm once again TDC. All this talk about feeling pressure on the exhaust side has me really worried that I did something wrong during the build seeing as this was the first time I have ever built an engine. Bad news is he can't come over until tomorrow.

If the pressure was coming out of the exhaust port, that'd be ok. If it's coming out the plug hole, that's not good. But maybe she was feeling some reverse pressure (suckage is the scientific term) and mistook it for positive pressure? Could happen...

Later.

Paul

 

[Izzy]

CHeck here to see why I'm a bone head.

http://classicbroncos.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168131&page=25