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One-Click Won't start diagnosis steps...

DirtDonk

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Bronco Guru
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Nov 3, 2003
Messages
48,964
The headlights don’t have a fuse. They, and the brake lights, get their power directly from the battery to the headlight switch.
There is a circuit breaker inside the switch for protection.
First thing I would do now, is test other accessories. When you turn the key to ACC or ON, do you get radio, heater, other accessories?
When you turn the hazard flashers on, do they work?
Just trying to figure out if it’s simply the headlights alone, or something more all encompassing.
 

DirtDonk

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I believe there is only one fusible link that matters at this point. If all the other accessories are out as well, the fusible link on the black wire on the battery side of the starter relay is the suspect.
Or, just make sure that the black wire was re-reinstalled on the battery side of the starter relay!
If not, you get nothing!
 
OP
OP
BigYella
Joined
Oct 19, 2023
Messages
23
Loc.
Georgia
The headlights don’t have a fuse. They, and the brake lights, get their power directly from the battery to the headlight switch.
There is a circuit breaker inside the switch for protection.
First thing I would do now, is test other accessories. When you turn the key to ACC or ON, do you get radio, heater, other accessories?
When you turn the hazard flashers on, do they work?
Just trying to figure out if it’s simply the headlights alone, or something more all encompassing.
The headlights are now working (I edited the post just as /after you replied I think). I don't know what's different.. (all the other accessories were working the rest of the time).
Very strange.
I do see that fusible link (I believe it is the black rubber/plastic fatter diameter cylinder around the wire about 3/4 inch long) on the black wire on the battery side of the starter solenoid, and in fact there seem to be two on that same wire - maybe a past issue. I will look to into it after I try replacing battery cables.
They are getting hot when i try to start and I'm suspecting that they are corroded inside despite cleaning the terminals well. The plastic and exposed parts seemed pretty 'new' so I think it threw me off, but the resistance on the black battery cable is reading a little too high.
Thanks for your input I really appreciate it. I both want to save the money from the mechanci but also want to learn this. Started with 0 electrical knowledge, I'm at least at 0.5 now lol, so thanks for the input.
 
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BigYella
Joined
Oct 19, 2023
Messages
23
Loc.
Georgia
Welp I realized that while hte issue before was likely a bad ground (if not the only issue), and I believe I've fixed that, in the course of taking the battery off and on, I had loosened the screw on the black terminals plastic knob battery disconnect, so it was barely making contact. I tightened that up, and was going to go to start it (I had just charged the battery) so I hooked up my multimeter with alligator clips on voltage to see if I got too high of a drop while starting. I noticed that now the multimeter is dropping immediately and fast as soon as I hooked up the negative properly. About 0.01V per second, from 12.62 down to 12.49 in 15 seconds. I turned it once, and it one clicked again. I came out to unhook things, but the wires that had previously just been warm were now SMOKING and melted the rubber/plastic insulation on teh ends where it met the leads--on both the red wire from battery to starter solenoid, the black from starter solnoid to starter motor, and the black from the engine ground back to the negative battery. The new ground cable from battery ground bolt to body was not warm.
I disconnected red, and hooked up a test light from red wire to positive terminal and see that the light is on, I guess meaning I have a short.
I wonder if maybe I caused this while redoing wiring to clean up/fix bad ground. I'm not sure how to test for this short - it's very strong and high draw so it must be something related to the starting system/engine, probably can't find it by taking out accessory fuses one by one.
I looked and don't see any obvious bad wiring / touching for a short.
Anyone know what these signs might indicate?
 

DirtDonk

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Bronco Guru
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Nov 3, 2003
Messages
48,964
Why don’t we start this chapter with a few pics of your engine compartment.
Specifically around the area in question. Starter relay, battery and cables, starter, alternator etc.

Should have asked for it earlier, but maybe seeing what you have to work with will help us see something.
 
OP
OP
BigYella
Joined
Oct 19, 2023
Messages
23
Loc.
Georgia
Why don’t we start this chapter with a few pics of your engine compartment.
Specifically around the area in question. Starter relay, battery and cables, starter, alternator etc.

Should have asked for it earlier, but maybe seeing what you have to work with will help us see something.
Here are a couple. Right now I'm trying to do some research and testing to see if it is more likely a short or more likely high resistance from bad cables/ground. From the overheating in the way it did and the quick short test I'm thinking short is more likely.

brobco-bay-2.avif

Bronco-bay-1.avif
 

DirtDonk

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Haven’t looked at them in detail yet or on a big screen, but I see one thing that could be part of renewing that might help things.
Your main battery cable ground is more following in the Chevy tradition than the Ford. Best practice with the engine block negative is to put it as close to the starter as possible.
That does not include mounting it to an intake manifold bolt.
And I could be wrong just based on the picture, but it looks like your engine to body ground is a larger gauge than the battery to engine ground. That is not a “problem” necessarily, but if anything, the main engine ground should be the larger gauge. Body grounding is important, but it doesn’t need to be battery cable size necessarily. Again, doesn’t hurt though!

A 6-gauge cable is certainly sufficient when run efficiently and working properly. A 4-gauge is even better.
If possible, while you’re running around and messing with the starter circuit, I would try to reroute that battery cable down to the engine block at the very least. And if these battery cables are older than they look, maybe just get new ones.
Don’t make the electrons go through so many layers before it gets to the starter. The closer to the starter, the better. And Ford conveniently gives us a couple of threaded holes that can be utilized.

The body ground can remain where it is, but better yet, put it down in the same place on the engine block, or simply run it from the battery to the body with a smaller gauge wire. And don’t neglect to add one between the back of the engine to the firewall.
Here again though, don’t go to an intake manifold mounting bolt.
You can go to one of the accessory mounting holes on the manifold, or if your particular intake doesn’t have any, a bell housing bolt suffices.

A body ground does not necessarily need to be 4-gauge! It can literally be 10 gauge and still handle all the current usually needed for most body accessories.
Bigger doesn’t hurt. It’s just not necessary.

And I don’t like putting any wires under intake manifold bolts in the first place. Also not a best practice in my mind.
What if you want to replace it? Loosening an intake manifold bolt to service wires is a recipe for a future leak.
 

DirtDonk

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48,964
Thanks for the pictures by the way.
Can you shoot a different angle and a little closer to your negative battery terminal, and the end of the ground wire there?

Basically, your main cables are not really looking that great. Even though I’ve used that type of positive terminal to good effect for repairs, eventually, they just need to be replaced with a legitimate cable and lug.
If you haven’t already, pull that end of the cable out and make sure all the strands are clean, tight, wound up well, and reinserted into that clamp and tightened good. I think you said you did that, but wanted to be sure.
You need to be even more diligent about attaching things to that type of battery lug than normal.
Also, what’s the condition of the other end at the starter relay?

And speaking of best practices, you don’t need extra length. Shorter is better. So if you need to keep that positive battery cable a while longer, maybe shorten it and strip a new batch of strands to put at the battery.
The shortest you can get away with and still have a reasonable amount of flex and flexibility in routing the cable itself, the better.
 

DirtDonk

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And you may have said somewhere, but I don’t remember. What year is your bronco? Looks like a 73 or newer, but not sure based on the location of the voltage regulator.
 
OP
OP
BigYella
Joined
Oct 19, 2023
Messages
23
Loc.
Georgia
Thanks for the pictures by the way.
Can you shoot a different angle and a little closer to your negative battery terminal, and the end of the ground wire there?

Basically, your main cables are not really looking that great. Even though I’ve used that type of positive terminal to good effect for repairs, eventually, they just need to be replaced with a legitimate cable and lug.
If you haven’t already, pull that end of the cable out and make sure all the strands are clean, tight, wound up well, and reinserted into that clamp and tightened good. I think you said you did that, but wanted to be sure.
You need to be even more diligent about attaching things to that type of battery lug than normal.
Also, what’s the condition of the other end at the starter relay?

And speaking of best practices, you don’t need extra length. Shorter is better. So if you need to keep that positive battery cable a while longer, maybe shorten it and strip a new batch of strands to put at the battery.
The shortest you can get away with and still have a reasonable amount of flex and flexibility in routing the cable itself, the better.
Thanks again for the input. It is a 1976.
Those all sound like good best practices. But would they be the kind of things that would stop the car from starting when it did before, and cause the wires to get so hot they are smoking/melting on the edges?
Especially if the cables are reading under an ohm in resistance end to end? (around 0.2 for the two battery wires. The wire from the starter solenoid to the starter motor is 0.6, and maybe 8 inches too long, so I could replace that, but even that shouldn't be enough resistance?)
PS - I may replace all 3. I'm not sure what your note about the positive terminal is though--isn't it a cable and lug now? I can get a shorter one (current is 12", I could get it downy a few inches), but what would make it more legit? I'm looking at this https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000JYH9AG/?tag=classicbroncos-20
 

DirtDonk

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Resistsance can cause them to heat up, but so can an overload or a short. A full short would theoretically have resulted in much more smoke and damage, but I don't know as I've never had one with a big battery cable.
A frozen starter, or frozen engine can do it as well. Have you turned the engine over by hand yet? Have you pulled the starter yet, to see if it spins freely on jumper cables? Or if not pulled, have you jumped directly to see if the starter spins?
Seems to me you've done all of the above, which leaves just the cables.

Can you even test them using an ohm-meter? We're talking about miliamps (testing load) vs 100+ amps (working load) variance here. Not sure what you can tell with an ohm-meter, other than using the volt-meter for testing voltage drop. Didn't you already do that as well? Guess I have to re-read the thread to see what I'm missing.

Regarding the positive cable comment, that type of lug is what I was referring to. It's a "temporary fix" type. I don't think they're actually invented as just temporary, but they are a fix.
I've used them, but the problem with them is that they can come loose, and the conductor strands are always exposed to the elements. Meaning you can get corrosion up under the jacketing where you can't see it, which might not hurt immediately, but in the long-term it's unacceptable degradation.
Hence the general consensus that this type of terminal be used temporarily to get you back on the road, until you can implement a more permanent fix.

I'm a fan of good and heavy battery cables. I've had new ones fail in a year, and old ones last for decades. Doesn't matter and it's hard to tell sometimes. And impossible to tell just by looking. A voltage drop test is probably the only legit test. The easier thing is to just replace them.
From the big screen, it actually does look like your main ground is larger than your body ground. Or at least the same gauge. And it's too long for where it's mounted, but looks like it might be just right for mounting it to the engine block underneath. You NEVER need that much excess cable flopping around under the hood.
it also looks like a semi-recent replacement, but it's hard to tell. More testing is needed.

But back to your real question, as to why it's not starting still after doing all the work you've done already, you need to go back to square one.
You used jumper cables, but were concerned that you had shorted something at one point? Or is that another discussion somewhere else? If you, do it again. But be more careful!;):)
Right now your cables are getting hot. That's not good, but you can bypass them by jumping directly from the battery positive terminal to the starter. Does its crank? If so, move on up the line.
Remember to triple-check that the vehicle is still in Park/Neutral and that your junk is out of the way of anything that might spin!

If the starter cranks, then move up one. Leave the cable on the starter, and move the batter end down to the starter relay. What happens then? Still cranking like a big dog, or weak and whiny with smoke? Bad positive battery cable or connection.
Spins up just fine? Move the battery side to the starter cable side of the relay? What happens then?

Let us know what you find. I know using jumper cables with their big-ass alligator clamps is awkward. But do whatever you can to insulate them from touching metal. A properly sized bit of cardboard goes a long way to happy, smoke-free testing.

Paul
 

DirtDonk

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By the way, whether it's the most efficient way, or not, I've replaced cables that ended up being perfectly fine. I still have them in my BFPOSIMNUA (big fat pile of spares I may never use again) but am happy I changed them out anyway.
New 2ga cables are cheap. A 4ga set is even cheaper. But measure what you need to get them where you need to go, then get new ones.

Make sure that they are sealed from the environment and install them way out of the way of heat and spinning thingies. Clamp them down if you need to.
Even if it's not your problem, you will at least have new ones that will not add to your problems. And will work even better than ever as they have more room to degrade before failing than smaller, older battery cables do.
Yes, even new battery cables can be bad. But that is far less likely (and less expensive) than a bad new starter relay or bad new starter.

Paul
 

Steve83

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Jul 16, 2003
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9,112
Loc.
Memphis, TN, USA, Earth, Milky Way
...clean out the threaded hole it went in.
That's why the threads aren't actually part of the electrical circuit. It's too hard to clean them. The ring terminal is designed to make contact on its face with the block. That's all you should worry about.
Still won't start.
That's vague. Exactly what does & doesn't happen? Be specific & thorough.
So many potential issues I guess now.
Don't guess, and don't rush to replace parts on hunches.
...fusable links...
There are none in the starter circuit.
Fuses or circuit switches/breakers outside of the glove box?
Again: none in the starter circuit. But depending on exactly what you mean by "not starting", there might be some in the cranking (starter relay) circuit.
Maybe a short somewhere...
A short circuit either blows fuses, trips breakers, or heats things (like wires) - sometimes to the point of catching fire. Based on your "not starting" description, it doesn't seem like your issue is a short.
Another bad ground somewhere else?
It would be getting hot. But there are only a few used for the starting & cranking circuits. The starter housing to the bellhousing is arguably the 2nd-most-important grounding location.
...jumpers with integrated fuses...
IDK what that means. You shouldn't be using any jumpers, and fuses aren't integrated into anything.
I noticed the bettery wires are getting hot - both red and black...
When, exactly?
...so maybe they could be internally corroded I'm seeing, so may try replacing them.
Internal corrosion in a wire doesn't have much effect until it's so bad that the insulation is blistered and the wire is so brittle that you can feel it breaking when flexed. Corrosion only causes high resistance at connections, and wire is made of many long strands - no actual connections inside.
...plastic knob battery disconnect...
That should have been top of the list to REMOVE from the vehicle at the beginning of this process. If you had mentioned or SHOWN it in your first post, we'd have told you to scrap it long ago. They're notorious for causing problems like this, and you should NOT put it back on.

That clamped-on terminal on the red cable is another BIG problem. This time, you should actually READ this whole page.

(click this text)

It is a 1976.
You should put ALL your truck's details & history (as much as you know) into your signature(<-click that) so it shows with each post. Phone apps don't always show signatures, so you may need to switch to a real browser in desktop mode on your phone, or just use a desktop/laptop computer. Put your location (nearest city) in your profile &/or signature. Not all the truck's details are relevant to these issues, but you don't necessarily know which ones are relevant, so just put everything in now. The more pics you post (NOT in your sig) of the truck, engine, wiring, labels, & undercarriage, the more likely we can help you.
 
Last edited:

nvrstuk

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Just a Bronco driver for over 50 yrs!
Joined
Jul 31, 2001
Messages
9,345
Alright, those who commented about negative wire were (basically) right!
I took the starter out, ordered another one (which I guess i'll now be returning). Just for learning purposes I tried to hook the starter up to the battery (with red) and the body (with black) using jumper cables. Still nothing. Just to see, I put the black directly on the battery terminal - ran!
So I did some more investigating, and while my negative battery cable to the engine block, and the negative battery terminal, are new and in great condition, THE BOLT that holds that cable down to the engine was super rusted / the hole around it, and the grounding cable (in some cars a strap) going from that same bolt to the car body was f-ed. It had been wrapped in black electrical tape by a previous owner, opening it revealed braided wire that was totally green lol. It didn't register on a continuity test.
So it appears it was an engine grounding problem.
I got a new cable, am cleaning parts, will then test the starts off the car, with black to the body, and if that works, should be fixed.
I guess this might explain why it got super hot when I jumped the solenoid posts - positive was flowing in with nowhere to go?
Thanks for the input. Like all things, at least I learned a fair amount about how the starter works, and how to replace it should i ever need to.
That's ot why it got hot. It was high resistance due to the bad connection.

Glad you are up & running.
 
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