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Tell me a story of a failed stock or updated stock vendor supplied steering linkage

skrit

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A Horse with No Name
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Reason for the post is I'm rebuilding my chassis for street/ mild trail. Have a stock trac bar and a lightly used 2 point adjustable Tom's T style linkage i was going to clean up, paint and reuse.

Other than shiny new parts with DOM tube, new fangled heims/spherical ends and a $600+ investment.... what's the point? Why is this newish style so popular or even the "1 ton" conversion. If I'm looking at my knuckles, the part that this all attaches to seems to be the weak point. If anything will break I feel that the connecting arm is what will fail since it's a cast part.

Tie rod ends are easily replaced and greasable, etc. What fails on the stock style? Is it the actual steel? Sure it might get bent if smashed on a rock but wouldn't DOM tube?
 
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skrit

skrit

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Now that I'm looking at this, what a dumb design. Obviously this pinch clamp is the weak spot. Why wouldn't the solid rod be continuous and threaded on the end for a TRE to thread into without having whatever length of steel rod attached. I honestly don't understand why there hasn't been an update to this design without using SRE's and DOM. Seems so simple to use off the shelf TRE's, ditching the clamps and using a solid piece of steel. I'm obviously no expert... just saying what comes to mind as an engineer.
20241008_211210.jpg
 

Shimmy

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for a street and mild trail bronco running 33s i think you'd be fine with Tom's setup
 

JB Fab

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The knuckles are steel not iron, (stronger than they look).
 
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skrit

skrit

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What about an upgrade for those clamp sleeves? Any options?
 

Yeller

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If your not running hydraulic assist pushing near it, you'll be fine. I have in the past threaded a piece of tube and used jam juts to replace the split sleeve, but I feel this is really not necessary. Now the 3 piece tie rod, I feel they are a problem, especially if you have a tall lift, low/no lifts they are fine, but even then for 95%+ of everyone they are fine.
 

Yeller

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Only time I've had the sleeve break was from a ram pushing on it with poor geometry, we welded it up and ran it. for some reason I didn't have any pics of the end result.
 

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jamesroney

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Reason for the post is I'm rebuilding my chassis for street/ mild trail. Have a stock trac bar and a lightly used 2 point adjustable Tom's T style linkage i was going to clean up, paint and reuse.

Other than shiny new parts with DOM tube, new fangled heims/spherical ends and a $600+ investment.... what's the point? Why is this newish style so popular or even the "1 ton" conversion. If I'm looking at my knuckles, the part that this all attaches to seems to be the weak point. If anything will break I feel that the connecting arm is what will fail since it's a cast part.

Tie rod ends are easily replaced and greasable, etc. What fails on the stock style? Is it the actual steel? Sure it might get bent if smashed on a rock but wouldn't DOM tube?

"Tell me a story of a failed stock or updated stock vendor supplied steering linkage"​


So you ask for one thing in you title, then ask a different question in the post.

So I'll answer the question I think you are asking, and tell you a story about every stock bronco steering ever built.

The problem with the Early Bronco steering is fundamental. The length of the track bar requires a corresponding length drag link to maintain geometry during suspension cycling. Which means that the drag link is "short." The short drag link is connected to the tie rod out in the middle. This means that the drag link applies a VERTICAL load on the tie rod whenever force is applied. The more steep the angle, the more vertical force is applied. If you wanted to invent a way to intentionally bend your tie rod, you would attach the drag link to the middle, and angle it as steep as possible. So yes, EVERYBODY has a story about how their EB tie rod bent. Because if you lift an EB and add power steering...the factory tie rod bends. All of them, every time. And they are enormous already. Factory Ford Bronco tie rods are about twice the size of a comparable Jeep Wrangler, and equivalent to a 3/4 ton tie rod. But since they are loaded "wrong", the actual steel bends. This cannot be fixed by increasing the size of the tie rod end.

The $600 fancy heim rod solution INCLUDES the benefit of relocating the drag link location toward the knuckle. (The inverted Y, also moves the pivot location to the knuckle.) The 1 ton TRE solution also moves the pivot toward the knuckle. This GREATLY reduces the vertical load on the tie rod, AND it moves the load away from the middle of the tie rod. You get a length cubed effect on bending based on the distance from the knuckle. So the vast majority of the reduction in bending stress comes from moving the pivot.

Rest assured, the polished DOM, the expensive rod ends, and the fancy knuckles don't do crap. You could achieve the same effect with some rigid conduit, a Toyota Camry tie rod end, and a welder.

So anyone that moves the drag link to the knuckle pays the price of bump steer. The less horizontal the drag link, the more bump steer.

But how do you get the drag link to connect to the knuckle for cheap? Well, a high steer arm works...but unfortunately that requires a new knuckle, and those aren't cheap. But you CAN use a GM 1 ton TRE with a lateral hole in the side, to get close. And thus the "GM 1 ton TRE" crossover steering was born. You don't need DOM, you can use HREW, and you don't need super thick wall since 1/8 wall is plenty. The whole kit costs about $200 if you source it wisely. But you do need a tapered reamer...and Tie Rod Over starts to look attractive at about 3 inches of lift.

Now if you are bending your tie rod because you hit something...that's a totally different failure mode.

I hope that answers your question.
 

toddz69

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Reason for the post is I'm rebuilding my chassis for street/ mild trail. Have a stock trac bar and a lightly used 2 point adjustable Tom's T style linkage i was going to clean up, paint and reuse.

Other than shiny new parts with DOM tube, new fangled heims/spherical ends and a $600+ investment.... what's the point? Why is this newish style so popular or even the "1 ton" conversion. If I'm looking at my knuckles, the part that this all attaches to seems to be the weak point. If anything will break I feel that the connecting arm is what will fail since it's a cast part.

Tie rod ends are easily replaced and greasable, etc. What fails on the stock style? Is it the actual steel? Sure it might get bent if smashed on a rock but wouldn't DOM tube?

To answer the question in your title, I have bent two stock or stock "updated" linkages (vendor 3-way adjustable). The first one got bent 'wheeling in some rocks. I think it was near the tie rod end on the passenger side - actual tie rod and not the adjuster. Sorry that I can't remember the exact details - this was about 25 years ago. A friend winched it back straight for me and I was able to continue. The vendor 3-way adjustable linkage got bent on our Baja racer after a few years of 1000 mile races racing the NORRA Mexican 1000. I can't remember the exact details of what bent there either, but we changed to the GM 1-ton linkage that James mentions and we haven't had problems since then (actually, we bent that one year too now that I think of it). On my personal truck, after I bent the stock linkage, I changed to the modified/shortened F-150 linkage in the TRO configuration which has worked very well. It has some pros/cons compared to the GM 1-ton stuff.

Todd Z.
 
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skrit

skrit

Contributor
A Horse with No Name
Joined
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Messages
395
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Durham
To answer the question in your title, I have bent two stock or stock "updated" linkages (vendor 3-way adjustable). The first one got bent 'wheeling in some rocks. I think it was near the tie rod end on the passenger side - actual tie rod and not the adjuster. Sorry that I can't remember the exact details - this was about 25 years ago. A friend winched it back straight for me and I was able to continue. The vendor 3-way adjustable linkage got bent on our Baja racer after a few years of 1000 mile races racing the NORRA Mexican 1000. I can't remember the exact details of what bent there either, but we changed to the GM 1-ton linkage that James mentions and we haven't had problems since then (actually, we bent that one year too now that I think of it). On my personal truck, after I bent the stock linkage, I changed to the modified/shortened F-150 linkage in the TRO configuration which has worked very well. It has some pros/cons compared to the GM 1-ton stuff.

Todd Z.
Thanks Todd - I really appreciate you sharing your experience. I admire all of you desert racers and wish you the best of luck in future races!
 
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skrit

skrit

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A Horse with No Name
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Messages
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Never had one of those fail on me....ever. And that's a lot of trucks and a lot of extreme wheeling over almost 50 years now.
Nice to know - did not realize that the sleeve was not the weak point. I'm learning more than I could have imagined with this post! Love it!
 
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skrit

skrit

Contributor
A Horse with No Name
Joined
Apr 24, 2006
Messages
395
Loc.
Durham

"Tell me a story of a failed stock or updated stock vendor supplied steering linkage"​


So you ask for one thing in you title, then ask a different question in the post.

So I'll answer the question I think you are asking, and tell you a story about every stock bronco steering ever built.

The problem with the Early Bronco steering is fundamental. The length of the track bar requires a corresponding length drag link to maintain geometry during suspension cycling. Which means that the drag link is "short." The short drag link is connected to the tie rod out in the middle. This means that the drag link applies a VERTICAL load on the tie rod whenever force is applied. The more steep the angle, the more vertical force is applied. If you wanted to invent a way to intentionally bend your tie rod, you would attach the drag link to the middle, and angle it as steep as possible. So yes, EVERYBODY has a story about how their EB tie rod bent. Because if you lift an EB and add power steering...the factory tie rod bends. All of them, every time. And they are enormous already. Factory Ford Bronco tie rods are about twice the size of a comparable Jeep Wrangler, and equivalent to a 3/4 ton tie rod. But since they are loaded "wrong", the actual steel bends. This cannot be fixed by increasing the size of the tie rod end.

The $600 fancy heim rod solution INCLUDES the benefit of relocating the drag link location toward the knuckle. (The inverted Y, also moves the pivot location to the knuckle.) The 1 ton TRE solution also moves the pivot toward the knuckle. This GREATLY reduces the vertical load on the tie rod, AND it moves the load away from the middle of the tie rod. You get a length cubed effect on bending based on the distance from the knuckle. So the vast majority of the reduction in bending stress comes from moving the pivot.

Rest assured, the polished DOM, the expensive rod ends, and the fancy knuckles don't do crap. You could achieve the same effect with some rigid conduit, a Toyota Camry tie rod end, and a welder.

So anyone that moves the drag link to the knuckle pays the price of bump steer. The less horizontal the drag link, the more bump steer.

But how do you get the drag link to connect to the knuckle for cheap? Well, a high steer arm works...but unfortunately that requires a new knuckle, and those aren't cheap. But you CAN use a GM 1 ton TRE with a lateral hole in the side, to get close. And thus the "GM 1 ton TRE" crossover steering was born. You don't need DOM, you can use HREW, and you don't need super thick wall since 1/8 wall is plenty. The whole kit costs about $200 if you source it wisely. But you do need a tapered reamer...and Tie Rod Over starts to look attractive at about 3 inches of lift.

Now if you are bending your tie rod because you hit something...that's a totally different failure mode.

I hope that answers your question.
James, I could not have asked for a better answer. Thank you! Lots of info out there for the GM swap for me to study. Bump steer is what I'm afraid of though. I know geometry is the key to a good steering setup no matter what it's made of. I also know that for my setup, the stock style would work fine. I just don't want to kick myself for not doing an upgrade or swap while I have everything apart.
 
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skrit

skrit

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A Horse with No Name
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So in summary - it sounds like tierod bending is the most common failure. The solution it seems is better geometry and/or beefier steel. Heims vs. TRE's shouldn't be part of the failure equation - just a wear/ ease of availability and installation part?
 

DirtDonk

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Reason for the post is I'm rebuilding my chassis for street/ mild trail. Have a stock trac bar…
Sorry if I missed it, but I still haven’t seen what size tire you’ll be using. And what gear ratios and what transmission. And what engine and power level.
And maybe most of all, how do you drive?

Tie-rods typically bend for two main reasons. Physical impact, and torquing of the tires while in four-wheel drive. Sometimes as separate events, and sometimes in conjunction with each other.

You’ve heard from those that say stock will be fine, and from those that can bend anything.
What’s going to be your level of use?
 
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skrit

skrit

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@DirtDonk
33x15x10.5. 5.0 swap stock. 4r70w. WH1111 stock suspension, 4x4x2 steering box. Astro hydroboost. 4.56 front and rear. OX air locker in front, LS rear. 4 wheel disc. Mild trail/street but I want to slightly overbuild for the future. Building the chassis frame off...non running rig at this point
 
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