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NORRA class and rules

markw

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I have a little time this afternoon so I thought I'd get this started. I believe the desire of all of us is to have a good race, as fairly done as racers will do. As Bronco people we are interested in a class where we can race against other Broncos and the like. At the 1000 you will see everything from the Kasinger Racing (Andrew/Todd) period correct rig to tube framed sorta looks like a Bronco rig. The issue appears to be what really constitutes a Pioneer 4X4 and how do you have a class and rules which fosters close competition and maximizes the fun factor.
I would like to see Pioneer 4X4 populated by Broncos in the vein of the Kasinger Racing Bronco. This would mean building as close to a '60s era rig as possible. Others like my GMR Bronco, Chris Greenwood's and Boyd Jayne's Broncos should run in a different class. Pioneer 4X4 would be limited to 302 based block, carb, period correct transmission like C4, Toploader, etc. Chris's Bronco would be a perfect example with a 347 instead of his 408. Two shocks per corner, modified but stock mounting point radius arms and stock length rear springs. Pretty simple. No bypass or coilovers, no exotic shock coolers, no fuel injection or electronic transmissions. This might encourage people to build for the class and have a reasonable chance of winning. Building a race rig is an expensive, creative and very personal process and without a chance of winning most won't do it. My fear is pretty soon the whole damned thing will be overwhelmed with buzzy, irritating side by sides and the classics won't be seen anymore. Just a few of my thoughts to open the discussion.
 

House

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Although I am not a NORRA racer myself, I support the above paragraph!
 

Rustytruck

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Well if you want to make it fair, then racer carries his own spares. Driver and copilot make their own repairs and refueling. No chase trucks and racer is disqulified accepting outside help during a race. That will level the playing field.
 

garberz

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.........Just a few of my thoughts to open the discussion.

This should be brought up to the NORRA officials if you haven’t already approached them within the last couple days. I agree 100%! The Pioneer class needs to be governed a bit more. Then bump up the rest to Vintage short wheel base. The rules for the Pioneer class may need bo be simplified a bunch, just as you stated. I hope you can make something happen with this. Good Luck!

Mark D.
 
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markw

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Thanks Mark, I've been in contact with Chris from NORRA. Once we collectively agree on some things we can run it by him and see where it goes. Some of it is just safety. You can only push these Broncos so hard and they will bite. Allowing multiple shocks and stronger radius arms is an example of what I consider safety issues as well as improving the chance of finishing the race.
 

sprdv1

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This should be brought up to the NORRA officials if you haven’t already approached them within the last couple days. I agree 100%! The Pioneer class needs to be governed a bit more. Then bump up the rest to Vintage short wheel base. The rules for the Pioneer class may need bo be simplified a bunch, just as you stated. I hope you can make something happen with this. Good Luck!


I bet it would be a tough task to get em to change now probably huh..

I guess anything is possible
 

toddz69

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Chris will listen to any suggestions we make, for certain. A lot of it is clarifying and adding specificity to the existing rules.

Todd Z.
 
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markw

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I agree with that Todd. That's where to start and I agree Chris is very interested in our input.
 

Bukin 67

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Thanks for starting the thread Mark. After we get our thoughts together here, this really needs to be posted on rdez. There are other Pioneer categories that will be interested and may want to add to the discussion as well. I think this may end up going further than just the Pioneer 4x4 class.

With the exception of what Chris brought up about having a tiered race with a handicap, I think what Mark states is really the guts of what we're all wanting, correct?

As far as suspension, the only 2 classes that limit to 2" shocks are Pioneer and Legend. Legend also opens up the suspension wording to "stock concept" where Pioneer is "stock". Once you get into the Challenger years 2.5" shocks are allowed and 2 links as well, so to really simplify what we're doing, we all need to go into Legend except the Blue Torch and let the Pioneer rule changes pertain to them. I believe the longer shocks should have been racing in Legend all along.
 
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markw

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Well said. I think anything to encourage people to get involved in Pioneer will be good.
Legend would become more competitive and thus more fun.
 

landshark99

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First off I fully support the spirit of the Pioneer class and have always wanted to run in a class with other Broncos that are similar in build and maybe in the future, once I get a bit more seat time, I can be a bit more competitive. In addition I believe the Pioneer class allows most folks to build a desert racer for a relatively sane budget without getting into an arms race for the latest or greatest or having to upgrade ever year just to stay competitive.

With that being said, I built my Bronco according to the printed 2018 and then 2019 class rules and what others in the class were running. I tried to keep most of what I did to the "spirit" of what I believed was the Pioneer class is/should be while still trying to improve the ride/safety/controllability as dictated within those guidelines. i know others who no longer race because of rule changes (for better or worse) because of the cost to basically rebuild their Bronco to remain with the others.

I am not an expert by any means on vintage desert racing, nor on all of the Bronco combinations that ran Baja or other desert races between 1967 and 1975 but am I wrong to say if it was used or available during those years you should be able to run it? I know this brings up another can of worms of who is to say a XYZ is allowed because Billy Joe ran it in the 1974.5 Ensenada to Tijuana barstool race but broke three miles from the starting line cause a leg on the stool fell off - but i think there is a middle ground that can be agreed upon.

I am of a mind set to keep the rules simple enough that it doesn't become NASCAR, but keeps everyone honest. Since the dawn of racing some guys/gals will always push/bend the rules as far as they can to gain an advantage, it will never change - I am pretty certain there are guys who race Broncos and have that competitive spirit :)

Randy mentioned a suggestion I brought up on the way home, instead of splitting up the Broncos, what if there was some kind of time penalty system for grey area modifications, maybe 15 minute penalty per special stage per item? I am not talking about triple bypass shocks or 37" tires, those are clearly defined in the vehicle rules as non-compliant for Pioneer. I am talking about smaller things that are deemed not in the spirit of the class. I think that would level the playing field and allow everyone to participate in racing together in the same class. Again, i realize this goes against simplicity that I stated above and someone would have to step in to make the call. However I think this might influence others to build to class and make sure they stay within the spirit of what Pioneer should be.

As Mark mentioned, building a race vehicle is a very personal and expensive process. Whatever changes that are agreed/implemented I hope they allow most of us to remain together and remain competitive and most of all keep it fun!

Sorry for the long winded thoughts..

EDIT: sorry missed your comments Randy, agreed that to simplify and if thats what Pioneer should be - 302 based block, carb, period correct transmission like C4, etc then everyone who cannot or does not meet those plus current Pioneer class rules gets bumped. I know I probably will not be able to change my engine out this year since I built the Bronco around that power plant.
 

BanditBronco

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My first thought when I read this thread was Landshark's build. I think he did a great job and doesn't cut into the pioneer spirit. If you guys were racing more than one race a year and there was a sole group of rigs that were at every race battling then I could see the idea of crunching the rules tighter and making it more competitive with a tighter class. But when most of the teams bring out those rigs for 1-2 races a year I think a broad rule book is a good thing, lets more rigs join in on the race. The more race cars you have in a race the better the race. This was very apparent this year at the parker 425 when all the big trophy truck teams stayed home because the prize money was better at the KOH invitational a week later. I think a tier style would best substitute, it should be obvious to most that the Unicorn can outrun Andrew and Todd's racer.
 
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markw

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Great discussion! Yes, yearly rule changes are absurd. I think anything like I've proposed for the Pioneer class would have to be put out 5 years in the future to allow people to plan builds around that concept and set of rules. In the meantime the rules for Pioneer can stand to be better clarified. Ie, spell out that multiple shocks per corner are legal. I got caught on the radius arm length and rightly so. Better clarification of stock mounting points would be helpful. Might seem obvious but maybe not. Those are the things I think would be of considerable help to new builders. I will run stock length arms next year, it's an easy fix. For Chris to swap to a 347 due to a rule change would not be an easy fix nor would it be fair to him. However, I still see his Bronco as an ideal prototype for a future Pioneer class build. A simple, clean build without a ton of parts no one else can source such as shock coolers.
By the same token I think a handicap system would be a real can of worms and very difficult to write and enforce. I really don't see anything changing in the lineup for 2020.
We will be back in Pioneer 4X4 where we currently belong, Chris will come back new and improved, BJ will have some new trick part, etc. And that's racing. I just really don't like side by sides and would love to see more Broncos, Jeeps, Scouts, etc in the Pioneer Class.
 
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markw

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Oh hell yeah! The only good thing about those ugly bugs is they end up in ravines and turned turtle a lot.
 
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markw

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A common sight. Best seen when having been recently passed on a narrow ledge in the hills.
 

Bukin 67

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A common sight. Best seen when having been recently passed on a narrow ledge in the hills.

I know exactly which time you're talking about ;D;D and it's happens over and over again, just like the tortoise and the hare!

So to reiterate what you said before, and I agree for at least 2020 anyway, if we can be class 'legal' as the rules state now, we will all be racing Pioneer by just shortening our radius arms. Then go for long term rule 'clarifications'.

My first thought when I read this thread was Landshark's build. I think he did a great job and doesn't cut into the pioneer spirit. If you guys were racing more than one race a year and there was a sole group of rigs that were at every race battling then I could see the idea of crunching the rules tighter and making it more competitive with a tighter class. But when most of the teams bring out those rigs for 1-2 races a year I think a broad rule book is a good thing, lets more rigs join in on the race. The more race cars you have in a race the better the race.

I agree with this. It's just the longer shocks bother me in this class because they just aren't period correct (or are they?) Were they available in the Pioneer years? It would be just as easy for all of us to race together in Legends without any rule changes. Just clarifications on the stock suspension mounting points because to me that means shocks.

it should be obvious to most that the Unicorn can outrun Andrew and Todd's racer.
Bandit: Didn't Andrew & Todd beat you this year by like 5 hours?;D Just messin wit ya!;D
 
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