351W install - interesting discoveries.

[BlackHorse]

As far as I knew all the windsor motors had the same mounting height too (302s and 351Ws). Not sure if I got an odd ball or not. After looking as many Bronco's, I'm not convinced that they all have the motor mounts on the frame in the same place either. From Bronco to Bronco I have seen almost a 1/2" variation of where the frame mounts have the engine sit in realtion to the bottom of the frame rail.

"Variation" Ladies and gentalmen let us not forget that our beloved steeds were produced at the point in time when the big three had serious quality issues. This is what allowed the imports to gain market share. This also explains why two people buy the same fender and one guy complains about the fit while the other claims it fits perfect. You have an 11 year run on this body style. Variation is the name of the game with these rigs. "Bolt on" that’s a good one. Look at the bright side we've got welders, grinders, files, and all kinds of great tools just to help make all the stuff we buy work. ;D

 

[vap13]

You have to take it kinda high

 

[vap13]

Wheels off for clearance

 

[vap13]

Tight fit

 

[vap13]

Done Deal

 

[bronco217]

eBronc, what adapter for the ZF/Dana 20 did you use that allowed you to use the stock cross member?

 

[vap13]

I'll have to check on the part number but it was from advance adapters. I had to modify the stock crossmember by cutting a section out of the middle and welding a piece back in. I will attach a photo, hope you can see what I did.

 

[vap13]

Here's another

 

[SaddleUp]

I just dropped a 96 351W/5.8 in my 69' a few weeks ago and it fit right in without changing any of the mounts. Granted I had other things I needed to make fit but not the mounts themselves.

 

[eBronc]

Call me Mr Fab...

eBronc, what adapter for the ZF/Dana 20 did you use that allowed you to use the stock cross member?

I made my own.

Well, actually I took the stock (V8) trans to D20 adapter and pretty much cut it in half. Since the front half of the adapter is for bolting it to the back of the stock 3 speed trans, I didn't it need and couldn't use it for the 2wd ZF. The back half of the adapter has the flange and mounting bolt pattern for the D20, plus has the internal bore for the oil seal and bearing, has the ears for bolting it to the crossmember on the bottom, and the mount for the t-case shifter(s) on the top.

I cut it in half along a line from in front of the crossmember mounting ears to in front of the shifter mount, and ground the "lip" off the bottom so it would bolt directly to the stock Bronco crossmember, with no bushings between them. I redrilled and tapped the mounting bolt pattern on the front of the D20 to clock it up just enough to bring the bottom above the frame rails. The adapter bolts to the D20 just like stock (but clocked), and the crossmember bolts to the adapter in it's stock location. The only modification I made to the crossmember was cut small rectangular holes in the front "face" so it would fit over the mounting ears on the rear of the 2wd ZF, and weld an angle iron bracket underneath so the crossmember could be bolted to the ears.

More details at:

http://home.austin.rr.com/broncenstein/Drivetrain.htm

 

[trailpsycho]

eBronc, you are a mad scientist to the n-th degree. I finally checked out your drivetrain page and am very impressed. How does it all work, there were no final assmbly pics??? Have you got it running/crawling or are you still waiting for an electrical storm of sufficient intensity to bring that beast to life??

 

[tonto]

I found with the H.D. motor mounts or the ones that came with my 96 5.8 the motor sat higher has you suggest and it ate up the clerance between the back of the intake on the drivers side and the fire wall.
This worried me that under torque it might rub the fire wall where the top seem over hangs approx. 3/4" with the back of the upper intake.
Solution was to just run stock motor mounts, gave me another 3/8" clearance.
You can tell in the pic. how close the clearance is.

 

[eBronc]

They said it couldn't be done...

eBronc, you are a mad scientist to the n-th degree. I finally checked out your drivetrain page and am very impressed. How does it all work, there were no final assmbly pics??? Have you got it running/crawling or are you still waiting for an electrical storm of sufficient intensity to bring that beast to life??

If you mean final assembly pics of the entire truck, no, there's not any since it's not done yet. I installed the 351W and ZF/D20 combo about 2 weeks ago, and have been working like mad bending exhaust tubing, routing fuel and brake lines, slightly modifying the E-brake linkage, removing the front passenger side body mount to make room for the HUGE aluminum radiator and 16" electric fan...you know, details. I just finished an article covering the swap for Bronco driver - look for it in the next issue.

Once all that's done, I've still got the high-pinion D44 to build for the front, rebuild the Dana 60 that's going under the rear, install the suspension lift, hook up the power steering, apply the bedliner to the interior, weld in the rollcage....it might be driveable in a few months.

Maybe.

Electrical storms we've had plenty of the past few weeks - what I need is more free time.

 

[SaddleUp]

eBronc, I'm looking over your swap but in my initial review I'm not seeing how you keep the tranny and transfer case working as a single unit. I.E. When the engine twists (which it will) what is keeping both together so they twist the same? If they aren't then it will wipe out something in between them before too long. I can see a way of doing it myself but I wanted to see what you did. I personally would probably bolt both of them directly to the cross member and then rework the cross member to frame mounts to put bushings there instead of at the transfer case/tranny to cross member mounting point. If this is already answered in your article I apologize since I need to read it a bit closer again. If the torque/twist issue is already addressed then I may look at doing this. The only other issue I see is that there will be more of a tendacy for the tranfer case to twist for and aft in the cross member without the motor to push/pull on (Especially with the front locked in). Are you planning to brace it at the top to compensate for this? Possibly between the shifter mount and the back of the tranny?

 

[eBronc]

eBronc, I'm looking over your swap but in my initial review I'm not seeing how you keep the tranny and transfer case working as a single unit. I.E. When the engine twists (which it will) what is keeping both together so they twist the same? If they aren't then it will wipe out something in between them before too long. I can see a way of doing it myself but I wanted to see what you did. I personally would probably bolt both of them directly to the cross member and then rework the cross member to frame mounts to put bushings there instead of at the transfer case/tranny to cross member mounting point. If this is already answered in your article I apologize since I need to read it a bit closer again. If the torque/twist issue is already addressed then I may look at doing this. The only other issue I see is that there will be more of a tendacy for the tranfer case to twist for and aft in the cross member without the motor to push/pull on (Especially with the front locked in). Are you planning to brace it at the top to compensate for this? Possibly between the shifter mount and the back of the tranny?

No problem - you bring up an excellent point.

The rear of the 2wd ZF transmission has two threaded, cast-in mounting ears that stick out straight to the rear, on either side of and slightly below the output shaft.

http://www.mcguill.com/Bronco/ZF rear.jpg

In order for the spud shaft to line up with the ZF's output shaft, and to secure and support the rear of the ZF, I cut rectangular holes in the front face of the stock Bronco crossmember so it would slip over the ZF ears and up against the rear of the trans.

http://www.mcguill.com/Bronco/ZF crossmember mods done.jpg

http://www.mcguill.com/Bronco/ZF adapter progress 001.jpg

I fabricated a bracket out of 1 1/2 angle iron and welded it to the bottom inside edge of the front of the crossmember, just below the holes I had cut for the ZF ears to pass through.

http://www.mcguill.com/Bronco/Painted Tcase 004.jpg

This bracket is drilled so bolts can pass through it and up into the threads in the ZF mounting ears. The transfer case is bolted to the stock Bronco V8 transmission adapter, which is bolted directly to the crossmember.

http://home.austin.rr.com/broncenstein/Drivetrain adapter closeup.jpg

There are urethane bushings between the ends of the crossmember and the brackets which bolt to the frame rail.

http://home.austin.rr.com/broncenstein/PS crossmember mount.jpg

This method solves many problems - it puts the output shaft and spud shaft in line, it supports the rear of the ZF at the factory points and secures it from moving in any direction, it ties the trans and transfer case together solidly and still islolates them from the frame, and saves money by re-using the stock Bronco parts instead of having to invest in absurdly expensive aftermarket adapters or crossmembers.

 

[SaddleUp]

Ok, that is pretty much what I was thinking would need to be done. Is there an easy way to run a brace across the top as well? Possibly between the shifter mount holes and the back of the tranny? The transfer case mount normally would have the support from both the block/tranny (forward and aft) and the 2 bolts below. Here the forward and aft support has been removed and replaced by bolting directly to the cross member however it looks like having them this way still will not provide the same support forward and aft without some kind of bracing. Primarily because these bolts are both in line with each other. I can just imagine it work hardening the cross member there and eventually cracking it.

 

[eBronc]

You could fabricate a brace from the T-case shifter hole to one or two of the bolts that secure the rear case of the ZF to the main case, I suppose. I really don't see a need for it, though (at least in my application).

The bolts that secure the adapter to the crossmember are 9/16" diameter Grade 8, and they pass through the thick ears of the adapter, through the crossmember, and through the 1/8" thick square plates welded directly underneath it that used to be part of the adapter/crossmember bushing assembly. This will spread the loads imposed on the bolts over a significantly wider area than just the holes in the crossmember.

If I was planning to jump the truck, prerun Baja, or something like that I'd consider some extra bracing to handle the weight of the transfer case hanging like a pendelum off the end of the adapter. For the low speed rockcrawling and trail riding I'm going to be using it for, rotational support against the torque loads is what I was concerned about when I was planning the swap.