351w vs 5.0 coyote

[ilovemaui]

I nearly puked when the owner told me he had a LT1 in it - what a fuckhead...

LT1's suck! If you're going GM you've gotta do the LS3 or better.

 

[77-302]

Just say no to cheby motors!
Back to the topic, 1st 5.0 coyote is an amazing engine that will require less maintainance, burn less fuel (in stock tune), burn less oil between changes, be smoother and more adaptive to various conditions. Thanks to extensive engineering.
2nd it has been discussed, this comes at a pretty price especially since you'd have to adapt a 6R80 trans or adapt a Franken-trans solution.

351 is the way to go unless you want to keep chasing the weakest link down the chain with your wallet and patience in tow. These old girls were never meant to have that much power between the frame rails anyway.

 

[matts460]

Ok im going to open up a whole can of worms here BUT did you all know that the Ford FE bigblock with alum heads and alum intake weighs aprox the same as an all iron 351w? I used to pursue Ford engine weights since ive always been into muscles cars and im familair with the FE bigblocks (there my fav) Also if you had a 427FE (good luck on that) and installed the 428 crank it becomes an 454. That could be a hell of a power house! ALso all iron Ford 302 is 100lbs lighter than all iron small block cheby! All iron Ford 351w is aprox 60lbs lighter than the smallblock cheby. SO tell me why it make sence to use small block cheby in an Hotrod. LOL ok back on topic....

 

[broncnaz]

It only made sense to use a SBC in your hotrod back in the day when there was more of them around and go fast parts for them was cheaper. Only problem is today most of the kits are still geared toward the SBC's.

Guess it all boils down to where you buy parts or if you just want to buy someone elses overpriced rebuilt engine. Its not hard or expensive to get 400 hp out of a 351W. Of course I look more at torque numbers than HP so I can really care less about 400 hp thats really unuseable anyhow.
With a mild cam like a edelbrock performer and a basically stock engine your looking at over 350 ft lbs right where you want it. Better heads should bump you up a little more. Want more hit up the RPM cam along with some heads and your into the 400's of course you will probably need to regear.
I dont have anything against the coyote engine but related to the OP's question its just not a economical swap for a bronco and still ill suited as the power band shows unless you have the gearing. Yes maybe in a few years the junkards will have plenty of these newer engines for a lot cheaper but still your "new" engine will how old? what condition? what needs to be replaced? maybe nothing and you'll be lucky. Just a few unknowns still with this setup.

 

[OX1]

As much as I hate the chevy motor thing, I understand why some still do it.
Easy to get and bolt up to any trans chevy has made in the past 40 years.
Ford screwed up when it changed bellhousings on the small blocks (at least from an enthusiats point of view).

I'm amazed at the torque numbers some are getting from a 393 and right now, I'd probably have to go that route if I needed that much torque.

But that fact that the upwards of 30 year old EFI 302 is still considered a real desirable swap, I don't see why a coyote won't replace that engine at some point in the future. I'd still like to see it in front of a 435 (or maybe even a C4) with the right adapters. It well out-torques the 302 from as low as 1700 RPM. Maybe the throttle response just off idle is not as snappy, but it does seem odd to me that it's pulling 250 ft-lbs @ 1700 (at the wheels of an F150), but it is "that" lazy between closed throttle and 1700???? If it really is, a 435/T-18 would be a tremendous trans behind it, as first gear is usually useless with any 302 since you are well beyond the powerband very quick with a 6.XX first gear. It would get you into the power band quicker and then you can wring it until 7 grand in first IF you wanted to, which is probably another 3 grand more usable band than your average 302 EFI.

I think this swap could be very cost effective in front of one of the old 4 speeds at some time in the future.

 

[Gator809]

I think Chuck nailed it, there are "rebuilds" and REBUILDS. If all your going to do is freshen up a old tired motor and not do any other upgrades, a 351 swap makes perfect sense. However, if your rebuilding a entire truck, and doing a lot of upgrades, the coyote is a great idea.

OX, if 250 tq @1700 is "lazy" to some people, I wonder what a stock 2v bronco 302 feels like. Pathetic? Geratric? What about a 170 I6? Maybe a time warp backwards because of the lack of get up an go?

 

[bad 68]

Like any good business, Chuck is looking to the future instead of waiting for it to pass him by.

The variable cam timing the Coyote has can't be imitated in a 5.0HO or 351W.

I run what I think is a very usable 94 SVO GT40 351W.

It will NEVER be as smooth with excellent street and trail manors/ run cool/ warm up quickly on cold days and such as the Coyote.

Stay on it BC Broncos! These coyote motors will be getting dropped into everything with a Ford emblem in less than a decade.

 

[OX1]

OX, if 250 tq @1700 is "lazy" to some people, I wonder what a stock 2v bronco 302 feels like. Pathetic? Geratric? What about a 170 I6? Maybe a time warp backwards because of the lack of get up an go?

It must be lazy, it gets absolutely trashed in low end by the much heralded king of low end torque motors (in the 300 cubic inch range), the 300 six.

Torque
1800 rpm = 224 lb / ft
2000 rpm = 228 lb / ft
2200 rpm = 238 lb / ft
2500 rpm = 231 lb / ft
2700 rpm = 227 bl / ft
3000 rpm = 222 lb / ft
3400 rpm = 200 lb / ft
3500 rpm = 195 lb / ft

https://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=64144

Oops, my bad, not even that long rod 300, specifically
designed for only ONE thing, low end torque, comes close. %)
Coyote beats it @ 1800 by 25 ft-lbs and by 3500 the low end
torque king it shy 100 ft-lbs.

 

[chuck]

We are working on a "kit" but it wil be a bit before they are done. The computer controled Coyote is an interesting drive. When you stand on it it will push you back in your seat as expected, the suprise for me was it does it 3 times not counting shifts. I don't think anyone can build a 400 hp with all new parts for $6200 or 12k. for a complete setup. But even if you can it will not idle and will not be near as smooth.

 

[WheelHorse]

We are working on a "kit" but it wil be a bit before they are done. The computer controled Coyote is an interesting drive. When you stand on it it will push you back in your seat as expected, the suprise for me was it does it 3 times not counting shifts. I don't think anyone can build a 400 hp with all new parts for $6200 or 12k. for a complete setup. But even if you can it will not idle and will not be near as smooth.

Chuck,

I picked out the key phrase of "all new". Prices have gone up considerably even in just 5 years for speed parts.

Here's a prime example..an old school recipe for a 400hp small block that any DIY person can build. Although, and I will give you this, the un-accessorized 5L quad cam will make more hp than 405 and a lot more down low than a carb'd 302 will. Factoring in a 351 as the OP asked, torque would increase down low.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0307_ford_302_v8_engine_buildup/

However, seeing that this example above uses a stock bumpstick, idle will be great on both engines.

What most probably don't know is how the dual VVT works to really increase all areas of power (seat of the pants feel) out of the same 300+ cubes.

Not to mention, I hope you boys are factoring in a "ghost" cam option...This surely will catch someone's interest on here.

 

[Broncobowsher]

And the latest Hot Rod (in the mail today) has an article on swapping the Coyote.
Time for some reading...

 

[SSDDBRONCO]

And the latest Hot Rod (in the mail today) has an article on swapping the Coyote.
Time for some reading...

Haha just got that in the mail too. Time to get on it!

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Bituman]

We are working on a "kit" but it wil be a bit before they are done. The computer controled Coyote is an interesting drive. When you stand on it it will push you back in your seat as expected, the suprise for me was it does it 3 times not counting shifts. I don't think anyone can build a 400 hp with all new parts for $6200 or 12k. for a complete setup. But even if you can it will not idle and will not be near as smooth.

Add Exploder front dress to this: www.smedingperformance.com/ford/427+Windsor+460+Horsepower.html. New parts, "medium idle," 500 ft-lbs torque. It's under $12k, although not by much!

Basically you're right though. If EB's remain popular the Coyote will become a common swap and you'll sell lots of your kits.

Bob

 

[WheelHorse]

If EB's remain popular...

Bob

When traders and the 1%'rs hyper-inflated the muscle car prices, this left a middle class market to fill somewhere else. The blue collar baby boomers still want to play with something somewhat affordable, so who do you think is helping to keep the Broncos popular now...those who have a few dollars to spend and are willing to spend a bit more for the good ones and I don't see the popularity dropping off anytime soon.

 

[Bituman]

When traders and the 1%'rs hyper-inflated the muscle car prices, this left a middle class market to fill somewhere else. The blue collar baby boomers still want to play with something somewhat affordable, so who do you think is helping to keep the Broncos popular now...those who have a few dollars to spend and are willing to spend a bit more for the good ones and I don't see the popularity dropping off anytime soon.

I agree with you that Broncos will remain popular, although for different reasons. I think EB remains popular because it's a fun and unique vehicle to own and operate, relatively easy to work on even by those with limited mechanical experience, with easy, affordable parts replacement. How many "blue collar baby boomers" will continue to be able to afford an EB in the near future? Check this out:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/drive...olet-blazer-jeep-toyota-land-cruiser/2078021/

If you are right about why EB's remain popular, then that popularity may be at risk if that article is to be believed. Maybe I should start looking for that second EB now and start haggling with Chuck on his Coyote kit.

Bob

 

[matts460]

Pretty good read. Hell look at new/used ford Raptor's there holding better value than 07-09 GT500's

 

[ilovemaui]

When traders and the 1%'rs hyper-inflated the muscle car prices

I hear there is an occupied planned at the next Mecum auction. What a bunch of class envy bullcrap. Muscle car prices went up due to their uniqueness and rarity. You can pick up a very nice 60's 70's muscle car in the 20k to 30k range. Less than the cost to build the equivalent Bronco.

 

[apathy]

I have estimates from three different shops to build a 408 stroker out of my stock
351W. The prices range from $6,600-$8,500. You can buy a pullout Coyote with tranny and all the accessories for < $6,500. Granted, there are going to be some additional costs for oil filter relocation, motor mounts, headers, etc. Certainly, if you're comparing the cost of a stock motor to a Coyote, it's cheaper to run a stock motor. If you're comparing a stroker build to a Coyote, my money is on the Coyote. The Coyote is probably going to run smoother, cooler, and more reliably than a motor that has been modified beyond what Ford intended. As has been discussed, the Coyote makes plenty of power. Let's talk about harnessing modern technology: Donnas' "Screamin Demon" project is supposed to be getting 20 mpg on 37s. Let's see you do that with any stroker on the boards..... If you still want to stick with the old-school solution, I have a 351 long-block and a 302EFI w/serpentine that need to go bye-bye

 

[Broncobowsher]

Show me a complete pull out coyote for under $6500. I do mean a complete; engine, harness, computer, all of it.

 

[broncnaz]

X2 not to mention adapting a transfer case. really by the time you get a pull out setup what condition is it really in? Thats a chance in itself there. Not sayng a full blown stroker is a lot cheaper but really there not that much when you consider all else involved.
I wouldnt consider screaming demon anything specail a 300 hp 4.6. Dont even need a stroker to get that. "About 20 mpg" well my 73 gets about 20 mpg%). carbed of course Im sure its not pulling 300 hp and dont run 37's so I guess they have that.

Sure a 3-400 hp factory engine is going to run a little smoother dont know about cooler engine temp is more about the cooling system than the actual engine todays engine all run hotter than our early engines. As for more reliable well I wouldnt go that far more parts more electronics ect more to fail and more cost when it does fail. Yes technology has improved better flowing heads, better understanding of cam profiles ect.
While I can sort of understand the screaming demon build. They wanted something new, different and in a way something they can take to any dealer to figure out what is wrong with it. I didnt follow the build much but I can only imagine what it all cost.