74 Bronco Front Hubs - Help which inner hub bearing part#?

[DirtDonk]

I don't know I can be the educator here, as I'm just going on assumptions and presumptions and SWAG for now.
I don't know for a fact that there were not originally even more versions, but yes the two that I know of fit from '66 to '77 with the running change-over being whenever it was (sometime in '69 I think?) and I'm only basing that on the two different seal part numbers and two different drum styles.

It's all just assumption though, based on the changes noted. Neither one on it's face guarantees that an early and late hub are not swappable. That would be proven out by part numbers and/or fitment of the other associated parts.
We know that every other aspect of mounting one is the same. Including bearings, races, lockouts, etc.

I don't know specifics from having them side by side. Just from part numbers in a book.

Paul

 

[66BlueGoose]

Ok, looks like just two hubs for drum, specs are:

Dana 30 Hubs
1966 - 69-1/2 Seal ID 2.5" Seal OD 3.259" Hub ID 3.245
1969-1/2 -72 Seal ID 2.5" Seal OD 3.304" Hub ID 3.300

The later one was carried on into the Dana 44.

I checked Napa Seal 24917 specs they appear to be the same as the Timkin 4250 seal, so seal is right and his one hub is late style. The other 3 where the seal is too big are early style hubs.

Here comes the big question, the various vendor sights list hub seals differently. Dana 30 vs 45, by year, one even has 3 seals (2 for the dana 30 and 1 for the dana 44). Will the Dana 30 early seal cross over to a Dana 44 spindle?

If you are local and want to swap, I have 3 late style hubs.

More info, see picture below. Top one is the early style, bottom one is the last style. Its very slight but they made a seal change, later style is machined wider and without the step.

 

[66BlueGoose]

Picture rotated on me, left one is early style, right one is later style.

 

[CA650]

Hey 66BlueGoose - that is a very nice offer. I am on the peninsula yes.
I did pop the old races out today both inner and outer so ill probably take a run at it today

I’m using the bearings described above.
The outer oil seal took me a while to sort out but I believe it’s NAPA part 24898 and I have those.. so I’m ready to try again I think.

But Paul.. uhhhh what do you mean about inner and outer seals?
I have the inner oil seal so I thought I was ready to go. Is there another one someplace?
I laughed when you said to stay close to the parts store.. this sucks. Haha sort of but I’m up for it. I’m going in expecting to hose it up.

Is there a diagram someplace for my 74 with the Dana 44 that someone can link to? I’m sort of just watching how the current one comes off.. which is the gm disk conversion hub and then trying to follow that to guide how to put the stock ones together.

One f-up already happened. I took the current wheels. Hubs and spindles off once already to see what was in there.. and at the last step when I pulled off the spindle, that CAMBER plate that sits between the spindle and the Dana 44 fell off.. it’s a weird shape since it’s used to set the wheel camber I think... when it fell off I lost direction on how it was previously installed.. so I had to guess and I sort of out the thicker side towards the back thinking that angles the front wheels in a little so it will track a straight line...

I could use a link to some diagram or video on which way to face those plates.. sht.
In fact I don't even know what those plates/spacers are called to be able to google wtf to do with them

 

[tirewater]

One f-up already happened. I took the current wheels. Hubs and spindles off once already to see what was in there.. and at the last step when I pulled off the spindle, that CAMBER plate that sits between the spindle and the Dana 44 fell off.. it’s a weird shape since it’s used to set the wheel camber I think...

Are you talking about camber shims? Likely installed thick side down to dial out positive camber. I don't believe they were stock on the bronco, but I could be wrong.

I'd leave them off and check alignment after it's all together. Then start adjusting the alignment then.

Unless you're talking about the plate the brake caliper attaches to, or the dust shield...

 

[DirtDonk]

You got it. It's a camber shim.
Normally the thick end will go down, or up, to change camber (tilt of the wheel in or out at the top) depending on what was wrong in the first place.
With most Broncos, there was too much "positive camber" which is where the tire tilts too far out at the top. So in most cases, most or all of the thick part will orient to the bottom, to tilt it back inward at the top. Basically to tilt the spindle up.

It's not a deal breaker at this stage. If you're still near that step though, now's the time to take it back out. If you're already back together, wait until you see what the alignment is like once it's all back on the ground and then, unfortunately... Go back in and re-orient it.

What you did was basically change the toe-in slightly, rather than the camber. Not a life or death thing. Just a pain if it turns out you have to do it again.
Next time it's out, look for any numbers on it to see if we can determine how much compensation it affords. Usually the max is 1.5° but there are smaller ones.
If no markings, measure thick and thin and do the math.

Was it plastic or metal?

Paul

 

[DirtDonk]

I don't remember saying inner and outer seals. At one point I said "old vs new" but if I said inner and outer I was speaking of something else.

Just the one wheel bearing seal. If I called in an "inner" seal, that was just because it's at the back of the hub and not on the front.
There are certainly more than just one seal per side of an axle, with four or five that I can think of from diff to lockout, but for our purposes in this discussion, I'm only talking about the wheel bearing seal.

Sorry if I mentioned another one that might have confused things.

Paul

 

[CA650]

You got it. It's a camber shim.
Normally the thick end will go down, or up, to change camber (tilt of the wheel in or out at the top) depending on what was wrong in the first place.
With most Broncos, there was too much "positive camber" which is where the tire tilts too far out at the top. So in most cases, most or all of the thick part will orient to the bottom, to tilt it back inward at the top. Basically to tilt the spindle up.
Paul

Excellent - I paused halfway through one side tonight so I’m at a point in which I could leave the shim in or out. So what’s the call? Leave it in, thick side down seems like the call here. I can do that. I’ll try to get a reading ion it tomorrow to see how much of a slope it has.

It’s a metal plate

I’m trying to sort out one side and get the wilwood brakes to fit before I move on to the other side

 

[CA650]

Ok, looks like just two hubs for drum, specs are:

Dana 30 Hubs
1966 - 69-1/2 Seal ID 2.5" Seal OD 3.259" Hub ID 3.245
1969-1/2 -72 Seal ID 2.5" Seal OD 3.304" Hub ID 3.300

The later one was carried on into the Dana 44.

I checked Napa Seal 24917 specs they appear to be the same as the Timkin 4250 seal, so seal is right and his one hub is late style. The other 3 where the seal is too big are early style hubs.

Here comes the big question, the various vendor sights list hub seals differently. Dana 30 vs 45, by year, one even has 3 seals (2 for the dana 30 and 1 for the dana 44). Will the Dana 30 early seal cross over to a Dana 44 spindle?

If you are local and want to swap, I have 3 late style hubs.

More info, see picture below. Top one is the early style, bottom one is the last style. Its very slight but they made a seal change, later style is machined wider and without the step.

Thanks this is correct I believe. And the Napa part for this earlier hub is NAPA part 24898 and in my original post this lead to some of the confusion.

In the end, with your help the situation or solution was the following

I had two matching earlier style hubs that still had their outer bearing races in them when I thought they didn’t.

I had one later style hub and it’s oil seal was different but the race bearing sockets were good.

I had one older style hub with a reamed out/shot outer race socket.

Now I’m hoping that all the locking hub internals from the hubs on my bronco will fit inside the old style replacement hubs I’m installing this am.

 

[DirtDonk]

Does Wilwood say that the brakes fit all '66 to '75 Broncos? Or do they only list '70 through '75?

As far as the locking mechanism, that did not change early to late. In fact, as far as the aftermarket units like Warn are concerned, they fit all Broncos and F100/150's (with just a couple of exceptions) from '66 to '96.

So you should be good there. If not, it's not a Bronco hub or the splines have been damaged.

Paul

 

[CA650]

I don’t remember what wilwood said.

I did stand the new hubs, that I’m trying to install, next to the ones I took off and there is about 7mm difference in the height between the two hubs in terms of the wheel surface. so that would be about exactly what I need to get the wilwoods to fit.

Before this change.. the bracket stands about 15mm away from the rotor surface.
After this change it looks to be about 7mm off the surface which should be better.

I’ll know later tonight when I pack the outer bearings and mount the hub more completely.

For the wilwood 6 piston system.. there is no shim that can help move the brake caliper towards the rotor. The shins will help move the brake caliper away from the rotor if it’s not exactly center. Adding more shims moves the brake inward/away from the rotor surface

My problem is the bracket was too far off the rotor surface.

I think it’s going to work. I’ll know more in a few hours

The camber shim has no markings.. it’s about 1mm thick on its thinnest side and it’s about 4mm thick on its thickest side. So if my high school math is right that’s about a 1.1% angle.

I positioned it thick side down, rotated one bolt forward so it should be a very slight camber with a very very slight toe in.

Idk

 

[CA650]

Paul,

Check out this link - here is some free advertising for your shop. I've got 3 teenage boys, and this one loves the bronco. He'll work on it 8hrs straight if he needs to.

He's wearing a Wild Horses t-shirt. Someone sent him a free one the last time we spent some $ there. I think it was when we bought the roll cage and a 1969 half top that we modified to fit over that cage. Can't remember - but he wears it to high school a lot.

https://74bronco.shutterfly.com/pictures/108

Back to the brakes/hubs etc. We spent the FULL day on it this AM. We stripped a couple rotor bolts, we tried different spindle sizes, we accidentally installed the camber shim in one side over the top of the spindle (don't do that guys). In the end we did a full disassembly and spindle replacement, gear packing and re-assembly of the hubs and locking hubs junk, FIVE (5) TIMES! 3 times on the passenger side and 2 times on the drivers side... Imagine yourself "finishing" mounting the wheel, hub internals installed, tire on, jack lowered.... and then looking down and seeing an inner spindle seal you forgot, laying next to you on the ground! F$#@@!&K

I could assemble that front end with my eyes closed at this point..

ALL BACK TOGETHER - The 6 piston Wilwoods are perfectly centered. Hubs spin smoothly (that's a good sign) and the hub locks are all operational..
Thanks so much for the help!

Here's the diagram for the internal locking hubs if anyone needs it. Strangely this diagram is missing the most useful part of that locking hub. There is a bolt that screws into the face of that inner gear the one marked "axle shaft sleeve and ring" assembly. its highly useful in keeping the gear in place so the spring doesn't shoot it out when you're trying to put in the actuating cam and the O ring seal.

https://74bronco.shutterfly.com/pictures/108#105

Here is the bullshit work we were trying to repair.. this is what a Wildwood 6 piston caliper bracket looks like if your mechanic puts the bracket in backwards AND the rotors on backwards AND somehow jams it all back together THEN charges you for it and sends you on your way. That whiteish looking stripe or semi circle on the right side of the bracket in the picture is where a rotor bolt, from the "on backwards" rotors, made contact with the "also on backwards" bracket.

https://74bronco.shutterfly.com/pictures/107

I'm happy to have it all back together and glad nobody was hurt and now I have the peace of mind to know its assembled correctly.

LESSONS LEARNED
If your old bronco (say 75 and earlier) already has had a disc brake conversion and you decide you want a Wilwood brake kit. YOU NEED TO GO BACK TO ORIGINAL HUBS to use that kit.

LAST ITEM
I CANNOT get the wildwood brakes to bleed properly. No pressure from the peddle. I'm going to take them to my brake shop and have them checked out closely in the AM. I've been doing internet searches and it seems like a common issue they are finicky I think. Maybe since the master cylinder ran low we might need to go through the bench bleeding process again or get someone with some equipment to vacuum bleed/prime the whole system,

Anyway - I feel like we're close! Thanks much.

 

[DirtDonk]

Great story!
When you get a chance, send a high-res shot of your son in the shirt to broncopix@gmail.com and maybe he'll get to see himself in a future catalog.

I sure hope you can get some satisfaction from the previous shop. Yeah, I know they didn't get an original Bronco to work with the Wilwood instructions and parts, but they should have been able to discern something was wrong, rather than make it even more wronger!

Got a pic of how the calipers are mounted? Even if they're finicky (I had not heard that though I don't think) is it possible that they are on the wrong side with the bleeders in the wrong position?

And lastly, you ran afoul of a common issue with the locking mechanisms especially if you use YouTube as your instructions. Most people automatically assume you need to remove that small screw, but in the original instructions is mentioned (at least with the Warn brand) specifically to leave that screw in place and simply remove the entire assembly as one unit after removing the snap ring(s).
The only time you need to remove the screw is to let things come apart for cleaning and very light lubrication. Otherwise it can stay.
Definitely saves time and hassle, as it sounds like you found out.

Did you follow the factory/book instructions on how to adjust the wheel bearings?
It's not like most setups and takes a very specific procedure.
Figured I'd check that at this point, so you don't have to take it apart again later to replace buggered wheel bearings.
And since it's so easy for you to do at this point (again)!!!;D

Paul

 

[CA650]

No followed no instructions on adjusting wheel bearings so if there is something to do there we didn’t do it!

Sent a high res picture to your email. Along with one of the dog in the back

RE the wilwoods. I just ran it down to my wheel shop and they have a vacuum bleeder and they got the air out. Brakes are good now. I’ll take a photo but I don’t think they are on wrong they have bleeders on both ends and the words wilwood face out on the calipers it’s pretty simple. They just had a lot of air in the lines and the master. It took my shop 20min to get the lines clear and get good brake pressure. All good now.

I’ll now be curious what adjustments are possible with wheel bearings. I mean they look so simple.. they sit inside the race.. slide right onto the spindle, seem to work great.
Since I was not aware of any special procedure there, I’ll be looking forward to what I needed to do but did not do that will require me to take this thing apart again!

I think I’m up and running fine

 

[DirtDonk]

It's pretty straightforward and they can be re-done pretty quickly. Almost takes longer to put the front end back up on jackstands than to adjust the bearings.
But you will need a 1/2" drive torque wrench (capable of at least 100lbs) and the proper spanner socket ("hub nut" or "bearing nut" socket) if you don't have one already. No fair using the old hammer-n-screwdriver method!

You can leave the wheels on for this if you want, just get them up off the ground slightly so you can spin them.
Once the lockouts are back out the steps are run through thusly :

1. Remove the outer locking nut and mid-lock washer.
2. Verify that the little pin is sticking out facing your and with your hub nut socket, torque the inner adjusting nut to 50lbs while spinning the wheel. This is especially important with newly installed races and/or newly packed bearings.
3. Now back that same nut off 90° or 1/4 turn. Ignore how loose the bearings are at this point.
4. Install locking ring with it's tab in the slot of the spindle such that the pin on the inner nut cleanly inserts fully into one of the holes. If it does not line up with a hole perfectly you can flip the washer over and try again as the holes are offset from the tab slightly.
Or if it's just barely off, you can reach in with a finger or a screwdriver and turn the inner nut slightly to line it up.
I used to recommend only turning turning the inner nut looser to line up, but this last one I did needed it tighter, so I had no issue with turning it tighter while re-checking the adjustment.
5. Lock down the outer nut to 100lbs.

The actual specifications for the final torque differ depending on the book you read, or in the case of the Ford shop manuals, the year you're looking at. From as little as 50lbs to as much as 190lbs! I've never had one come loose at anything above 70lbs, but have seen enough of them fail due to insufficient locking torque that I don't chance it with the minimum anymore. So at least go to 70lbs.
I'm betting that most failures occur from not using a wrench at all, and just trying to hammer-n-chisel the nut in place. But I'm still not taking any chances!

Verify that the inner nuts still have their pins of course. Often they get put on wrong and wiped off, leaving no way for them to lock. If yours are still good, they're fine to re-use.
If on the other hand you don't find any pins, you'll need new nuts.

Paul

 

[DirtDonk]

I should mention that the ultimate procedure is to check your final work with a dial-indicator because there is certainly room for variations in the real world. I've run into those variations myself, but in most cases following that procedure results in exactly correct clearances.
But if you don't happen to have a dial-indicator setup, you can usually trust the factory adjustment to work. In my experience at least, with few exceptions.

The proper final clearance also has some slight variations over the years and in different books, but there is a consistency of range overall between .000" and .010" bearing free play. With one Ford shop manual from the '80's simply saying .005" and done.
Most however, still state .001-.010 inch and that's what I still go by.

Paul

 

[CA650]

Hmm interesting.

From your description I’m sure I have the inner nut too tight. I’ll do as you said.

I simply used the proper spanning socket and tightened by hand without the torque wrench. And I did not back off the inner nut by 1/4 turn.

The inner nut does have its dimple and I did not torque the inner or outer either.

Ok Paul, you shamed me into jacking the car up and opening those lockers one more time.
When I got in there after I had driven the truck a little. The inner nut was firm but not super tight and the outer nut was pretty tight.. regardless I torqued the inner one to 50 while spinning the wheel, backed it off 1/4 turn, lined up the notched ring and placed it on the dimple and then torqued the outer nut to 100ft lbs.

Put it all back together. I’m done with that thing for a while.

Thanks again.

 

[DirtDonk]

You probably weren't WAY out of spec, but the possibility is too high to ignore and not re-do it.
It's shocking hot much tighter clearances get when you've torqued the outer nut. But with yours not torqued, while you may not be too tight, not torquing the outer nut would let things loosen up in short order.
Hate to be driving down the highway when something decides to complain!

Good luck.

Paul

 

[CA650]

Thanks Paul.

Both nuts were probably way tighter than 100lbs when I did it by hand. The 100lbs and 50lbs felt light by like half over how hard I had tightened those nuts. The inner nut to me seems loose when following this procedure but I did it, Just like you recommended.

It’s all back together. The brakes feel good, the truck tracks a straight line at speed, no weird noises. I’m happy, I think it's right all around. Now - I have some extra hubs for someone here - the ones that came off I think are the gm hubs - the hub face is about 7mm taller/ farther out than the stock ones. And I have the one oddball hub that uses the newer style hub seal.

MR

 

[DirtDonk]

That's great. Did you by chance get some pics of your brakes installed before you put the wheels back on? Love to see how it's set up.

Yes, when you back off that 90 degrees you really open up a lot of clearance. But once you do the final torque on the outer nut, it tightens it back up to the specified clearance.
If it does not (and you should always do the shake-the-wheel test after an adjustment anyway) then something is wrong and deserves a re-check.

Nice to hear it's back on the road and no more "self-etching" caliper brackets!

Paul