advanced adapters

[EricLar80]

Interested in this as well as I'm using a 2wd 4r70w and am not sure which adapter would be easiest for my set up.

It's six of one and half-dozen of the other. In the end, I don't think one option is much easier than the other. I will say that, had I bought the 'A' version, I would have pulled the transmission apart anyways to get a good sense of the condition it was in. My transmission had 80k miles on it and looked really good, so we just slapped it back together as it was (including the new shaft).

Now that I have the 393w, I wish I would have updated the number of clutches in mine to match the 5.4L truck 4r70w's. I think there are two additional clutches in that setup.

BTW - if anyone is looking for a pretty cool series of write-ups on how to improve/rebuild the 4r70w, take a look here:
http://www.tccoa.com/articles/tranny/transmission/page8.shtml

Eric

 

[mattt]

I found my original notes about the length discrepancies with what AA instructions show for overall drivetrain length, vs. Early Bronco V8 stock drivetrain length. See below with link to the AA instructions that are posted online. The instructions also show in a picture, how/where to section the stock crossmember so it works with the AA adapter.

UPDATE: I found a better series of 3 pictures that detail the crossmember mods required to use the 50-2704 adapter. Second link listed below.

Original notes from 2010:
The only thing that is different is where the crossmember sits on the frame brackets, +1.5" back, but there is a work around. I've attached a pic that shows this. I came up with this option to double bolt the crossmember to the frame brackets from a very old(2006 maybe) post here on ClassicBroncos. Someone(sorry don't remember who) did this before, with the crossmember double bolted to the frame brackets, and I asked how it was holding up. It was all good years later, so I went that route too. So far, so good.

Instructions for this kit shown here:

http://www.atlas-tc.com/pdf/50/50-2704.pdf

www.bcbroncos.com/50-2704.pdf



If you read under General Information note #1 on the instructions in the link above, AA states that the AOD and adapter is 26.5" long, which is correct. I verified that measurement off mine.

What they have incorrect is that ""should directly replace any of the early Bronco drivetrain assemblies. The original V8 drivetrain assembly is normally 26-1/8" and there will only be approximately 3/8" of a difference,""



I measured my Factory C4 with adapter assembly that came out of my Bronco....it measures about 25" long. You can see the 1.5" difference from C4 to AOD in how I have the crossmember bolted to the frame brackets. That offset is about 1.5".

The aluminum adapter I have is 6" long as described in the instructions. How long is the currently available adapter housing?

 

[broncodriver99]

What it appears to me is the AOD/4R70W end housing is the same as it always was. All they have done is added the clocking ring to allow the original AWD output shaft to work and maintain an adequate spline engagement with the new spud shaft.

It appears the "new" kit will be 1.3-1.75" longer than the original kit that only used the replacement intermediate housing and replacement output shaft which was 1.5" longer than stock.

So, the standard kit will yield a 1.5" longer drivetrain and the new(cobbled together) kit will yield a 3-3.25" longer drivetrain.

 

[mattt]

What it appears to me is the AOD/4R70W end housing is the same as it always was. All they have done is added the clocking ring to allow the original AWD output shaft to work and maintain an adequate spline engagement with the new spud shaft.

It appears the "new" kit will be 1.3-1.75" longer than the original kit that only used the replacement intermediate housing and replacement output shaft which was 1.5" longer than stock.

So, the standard kit will yield a 1.5" longer drivetrain and the new(cobbled together) kit will yield a 3-3.25" longer drivetrain.

I would agree. What I don't get is why they combined the original kit AND the clocking ring. To me, that is now stretching out the driveline too long to where driveshaft length is now a concern.

The way I have always understood it....

If starting with a 2wd trans....use the original AA kit.
If starting with a 4wd/awd trans....use the ZF clocking ring kit.

What is the reason to have both the AA 6" adapter AND the clocking ring? It seems like that is just unnecessary extra drivetrain length since the ZF clocking ring alone will work on a 4wd/awd trans.

One other biggie to keep in mind is the +1.5" length is for AOD only. I believe the 4R70W is another ~3/4" longer than the AOD.
Something to keep in mind for overall drivetrain length.... +1.5"(AOD)....+.75"(if going 4R)....+~1.3 to 1.75"?(clocking kit) longer

When doing this conversion, I would always want the trans opened up anyway to check internal condition and refresh the replaceable parts. I suppose if you started with a known, very good driving condition trans...then you could just go the 4wd/awd route since you are positive the trans is fresh and operating correctly.

I've also found it much, much easier to locate a 2wd trans core vs. a 4wd/awd trans core. Many more 2wd's running around.

 

[Viperwolf1]

Now that I have the 393w, I wish I would have updated the number of clutches in mine to match the 5.4L truck 4r70w's. I think there are two additional clutches in that setup.

I've been doing a bit of research lately on the 4R70W in preparation for my own rebuild. I haven't seen anything that says the 5.4 used more clutches or found any evidence of different Ford clutch parts that would support more clutches. Explorer uses 5 forward, 4 intermediate and 6 direct clutches. The direct clutch appears to be the weak link in the 4R70W. I'm going to try to use 7 thin clutches there with standard size steels and a modified pressure plate.

The only difference I've found between the explorer 4R70W and the E/F 150/250 4R70W is the converter. The 5.4 converter is low stall, 1600-1800 (110K) FM69L. Explorer uses a high stall, 1900-2200 rpm (140K) FM-69C. Both have the large HD piston.

There is internet rumor that the 5.4 used a different EPC solenoid but after having dug into 3 different '98 explorer 4R70W transmissions they are identical to the 5.4 solenoid. Valve bodies appear to be the same and they are very different from car valve bodies. It seems to me that both the truck and explorer transmissions were the same except for the converter.

 

[fordguy]

I've been doing a bit of research lately on the 4R70W in preparation for my own rebuild. I haven't seen anything that says the 5.4 used more clutches or found any evidence of different Ford clutch parts that would support more clutches. Explorer uses 5 forward, 4 intermediate and 6 direct clutches. The direct clutch appears to be the weak link in the 4R70W. I'm going to try to use 7 thin clutches there with standard size steels and a modified pressure plate.

The only difference I've found between the explorer 4R70W and the E/F 150/250 4R70W is the converter. The 5.4 converter is low stall, 1600-1800 (110K) FM69L. Explorer uses a high stall, 1900-2200 rpm (140K) FM-69C. Both have the large HD piston.

There is internet rumor that the 5.4 used a different EPC solenoid but after having dug into 3 different '98 explorer 4R70W transmissions they are identical to the 5.4 solenoid. Valve bodies appear to be the same and they are very different from car valve bodies. It seems to me that both the truck and explorer transmissions were the same except for the converter.

do you think the truck converter would be a better choice for off roading?

 

[fummins97]

this has gotten a little confusing again, not sure if the zf kit is good since it will lengthen the overall so much, but it seems to be the easiest to install. I plan on having my trans rebuilt so I might just do the actual 4r70w kit. I am going to attempt the engine wire harness myself only because Garry has a 3 month waiting list, is there anyone else that I can send the ecm to get tuned?

 

[lagbolt]

The clocking ring is used with the 50-2704a to keep the stock main shaft. If there was no clocking ring. There would be no splines left on the main shaft after cutting. They have combined the old 50-2704 and the zf clocking ring so, that the main shaft of the 4R could be used and the bronco crossmember could be easily modified with the old 50-2704 housing.

I can only speak for the awd 4R because that is what I used. As fair as AOD to 4R comparison in length.

Here's some pics of the length. My trans is not completed yet still have to bolt the crossmember to the frame brackets and other little things like gaskets ect....

Hopefully this helps clear things up.


The measurements were all takin from the bellhousing. Here is pic and measurement of my old 3sp.


Here is a pic of the AA adapter I used.


Couldn't fit anymore pics.


Tom

 

[lagbolt]

Here's some more I found.



Tom

 

[lagbolt]

Broncodriver99.

I did not see your post. He's is dead on correct.

 

[mattt]

I've been doing a bit of research lately on the 4R70W in preparation for my own rebuild. I haven't seen anything that says the 5.4 used more clutches or found any evidence of different Ford clutch parts that would support more clutches. Explorer uses 5 forward, 4 intermediate and 6 direct clutches. The direct clutch appears to be the weak link in the 4R70W. I'm going to try to use 7 thin clutches there with standard size steels and a modified pressure plate.

The only difference I've found between the explorer 4R70W and the E/F 150/250 4R70W is the converter. The 5.4 converter is low stall, 1600-1800 (110K) FM69L. Explorer uses a high stall, 1900-2200 rpm (140K) FM-69C. Both have the large HD piston.

There is internet rumor that the 5.4 used a different EPC solenoid but after having dug into 3 different '98 explorer 4R70W transmissions they are identical to the 5.4 solenoid. Valve bodies appear to be the same and they are very different from car valve bodies. It seems to me that both the truck and explorer transmissions were the same except for the converter.

What is your take on the 5.4 truck version of the 4R70W having a different, strong planetary gear set as detailed on this page?

http://www.tccoa.com/articles/tranny/transmission/page7.shtml

 

[mattt]

The clocking ring is used with the 50-2704a to keep the stock main shaft. If there was no clocking ring. There would be no splines left on the main shaft after cutting. They have combined the old 50-2704 and the zf clocking ring so, that the main shaft of the 4R could be used and the bronco crossmember could be easily modified with the old 50-2704 housing.

I can only speak for the awd 4R because that is what I used. As fair as AOD to 4R comparison in length.

Here's some pics of the length. My trans is not completed yet still have to bolt the crossmember to the frame brackets and other little things like gaskets ect....

Hopefully this helps clear things up.
View attachment 358770 View attachment 358771 View attachment 358772 View attachment 358773 View attachment 358774 View attachment 358775

The measurements were all takin from the bellhousing. Here is pic and measurement of my old 3sp.
View attachment 358776 View attachment 358777 View attachment 358778

Here is a pic of the AA adapter I used.
View attachment 358779 View attachment 358780 View attachment 358781

Couldn't fit anymore pics.


Tom

The ZF kit(clocking ring only) maintains and uses the stock 4wd/awd output shaft in the trans, what you call stock main shaft. That is why it's not necessary to tear into the trans when going this route.

What is the length of the factory 4wd/awd adapter housing? Is it the same length as the AA adapter housing, 6"? Interested to hear which setup yields a shorter drivetrain.

Thanks for posting the pics. I couldn't see exact lengths of that drivetrain setup. What is overall from bell housing surface to D20 mating surface?

 

[hsach]

Wow, I am even more confused now. I am almost at the point where I need to get my 4R70W rebuilt and installed. I have a '99 4wd/AWD that I will have rebuilt because I don't know the condition of it, also I don't want to put anything in that isn't new or rebuilt. I am also going to have new drive shafts made front and rear so I am not sure if length will be an issue. What is my best option for the AA kit? Should I go with the newer one that doesn't replace the main shaft and adds a clocking ring, or should I go for the one directly from AA that replaces the main shaft? Transmission and drive shafts are getting redone either way. Thanks for any help, this happens to be a subject where the more I read, the more confused I become. ?:?

 

[broncodriver99]

Wow, I am even more confused now.

What is confusing you? Maybe it can be better explained.

There are now 3 options.

Option #1. The original AOD type kit. It comes with a new intermediate housing and transmission output shaft as well as a shorter spud shaft and bearing housing for the tcase. This will be the shortest setup. This can be used on any 4R70W transmission. The transmission will have to be disassembled and the new shaft installed. This setup will also require the AA 716057 oil hole plug kit to be installed as the 4R70W does not have a governor like the AOD that the shaft in this kit was designed for. This kit will yield a trans and adapter length of 27-1/4".

Option #2. The ZF kit which is a clocking ring and shorter spud shaft with a bearing housing. This kit uses the factory 4R70W transmission shaft that must be trimmed to work. This can only be used on an AWD/4WD transmission as it adapts the factory 4R70W extension housing to the D20 pattern. This kit requires that a seal(part # 471950) be sourced that is not included with the ZF kit but is necessary for the 4R70W. This kit will yield a trans and adapter length of 29-1/16".

Option #3. This is the newest of the options. This kit uses the older option #1 intermediate housing with the clocking ring of the ZF kit as well as a shorter spud shaft and bearing housing. This kit uses the factory 4R70W shaft that must be trimmed to work. This kit will only work on AWD/4WD transmissions. This kit replaces the original Ford extension housing with the AA one. This kit will yield a trans and adapter length of 28-5/8"

Just for clarification an intermediate housing and extension housing are basically the same thing. For the purpose of the Bronco setup either term can be used. Just in case the verbage was confusing anyone.

 

[lagbolt]

Broncodriver99
Well said.

My overall length was 38 1/2 inches with the newest adapter.

If you do decide to go the zf adapter way make sure you don't forget the sourced seal.

Tom

 

[mattt]

Broncodriver99
Well said.

My overall length was 38 1/2 inches with the newest adapter.

If you do decide to go the zf adapter way make sure you don't forget the sourced seal.

Tom

38.5"? That must be with the D20 attached as well.

Can you give us a measurement on the factory 4R70W 4wd/awd adapter housing?

What is overall length from bell housing surface to D20 mating surface with the AA kit you used?

Those measurements would flush out all the details about the 3 options that broncodriver laid out most excellently

 

[fummins97]

broncodriver99 that is a great comparison, my only question is how do you know if you're getting the new or old version. I'm sure I'll just go to jeffs since it will save on shipping costs, but their description doesn't say anything about a newer version.

 

[broncodriver99]

If you do decide to go the zf adapter way make sure you don't forget the sourced seal.

Tom

Good point. I forgot about that. Added it to the description in my post.

 

[broncodriver99]

38.5"? That must be with the D20 attached as well.

Can you give us a measurement on the factory 4R70W 4wd/awd adapter housing?

What is overall length from bell housing surface to D20 mating surface with the AA kit you used?

Those measurements would flush out all the details about the 3 options that broncodriver laid out most excellently

X2 Those measurements would help tremendously.

Thanks mattt.

 

[hsach]

What is confusing you? Maybe it can be better explained.

There are now 3 options.

Option #1. The original AOD type kit. It comes with a new intermediate housing and transmission output shaft as well as a shorter spud shaft and bearing housing for the tcase. This will be the shortest setup. This can be used on any 4R70W transmission. The transmission will have to be disassembled and the new shaft installed.

Option #2. The ZF kit which is a clocking ring and shorter spud shaft with a bearing housing. This kit uses the factory 4R70W transmission shaft that must be trimmed to work. This can only be used on an AWD/4WD transmission as it adapts the factory 4R70W extension housing to the D20 pattern. This kit requires that a seal be sourced that is not included with the ZF kit but is necessary for the 4R70W.

Option #3. This is the newest of the options. This kit uses the older option #1 intermediate housing with the clocking ring of the ZF kit. This kit uses the factory 4R70W shaft that must be trimmed to work. I believe this will only work on AWD/4WD transmissions. This kit replaces the original Ford extension housing with the AA one. I believe this is slightly shorter than option #2.

I am not sure which of option #2 or #3 is shorter(hopefully lagbolt will provide a measurement so it can be verified), but both will be longer than the original option #1 kit.

Just for clarification an intermediate housing and extension housing are basically the same thing. For the purpose of the Bronco setup either term can be used. Just in case the verbage was confusing anyone.

Thanks for the explanation, definitely helps. My confusions stems from some of the comments about the main shaft and which one is better. I have read that the original 4R70W one is stronger than the replacement one, I have no idea if this is true or if it would really matter unless I was putting out major horsepower. Also if any of the three options uses a crossmember in the original location or if all of them require it to be moved back.