AX15 Swap question....

[Racerx]

I have a 89 5.0 roller engine that I just had rebuilt and plan on fitting it with an AX15 transmission along with the advance adapters kit. My question is, will my existing bell housing that came off a 1968 289 with three on the tree work? I was told that it would not because I will be using a 164 tooth flywheel on my new set up. Any help is greatly appreciated...

 

[jamesroney]

Your 1968 Bronco with a 289 was equipped with a C5TA-6394-A bell housing. It is compatible with the 164 tooth flywheel. If your bell is original, then it is cast with that part number, and it is the one you want.

 

[Racerx]

Your 1968 Bronco with a 289 was equipped with a C5TA-6394-A bell housing. It is compatible with the 164 tooth flywheel. If your bell is original, then it is cast with that part number, and it is the one you want.

Thanks bud

 

[Bonefizz]

I'm doing this as well. What about the starter? I've got a 92 5.0 motor and just added the WH AX15 transmission swap kit. I changed the flywheel to the 164 tooth and am worried about what starter to use that will fit my old bell housing and the new 164 tooth flywheel. Does anyone have a recommendation on what starter to use?

 

[DirtDonk]

Same starter as you'd have used with the Bronco and manual transmission most likely. But what bell housing did you use? What flywheel did you source? Other than it being 164t what vehicle is it from? Presumably a 5.0 out of a later truck?
Whether an older style starter, or the probably more desirable modern PMGR (mini) starter type, it should be one for a manual trans. Probably can source one for a '90's vintage truck/Bronco with 5.0 engine and manual transmission.
With your '92 engine you do NOT want a flywheel out of a 5.8 engine, which would be 28oz imbalance rather than the 50oz imbalance that your '92 5.0 would be.

But wait for others to confirm or deny that. See what others have to say about it.

Paul

 

[Bonefizz]

The flywheel I installed is a 50oz imbalance flywheel, I believe from a F150, but not sure. The bellhousing is the original from my 69 three on the tree manual transmission. My concern is buying the wrong starter if there is a difference between a 157 or 164 compatible starters. I will buy a starter meant for a manual trans. Confused yet? LOL.

 

[DirtDonk]

The difference between starters is strictly automatic versus manual transmission for our engines. The bell housing sets the distance from the ring gear on the different size fly wheels.
So as far as I know on your engine the tooth count doesn’t matter to the starter.
Only what type of transmission you are using.

In your case then, a starter from the same donor vehicle as the flywheel is called for.

 

[CowboyGrin]

I’m in a similar situation: Months ago I purchased an AX-15 with adapter intending to reuse the bellhousing from my 289 on a 5.0 from a 2000 Explorer. Finally got it delivered, but during the wait I gave up the 289 and bellhousing to a family friend who needed it more than I (long story). So I’m now needing a bellhousing to fit the adapter I purchased. Was about to pull the trigger on a C5TA-6394-A off eBay to be safe, but noticed the instructions from the Advance Adapters recommend bellhousings from 1987-88 F150 for hydraulic clutch (if I were to go that route). Since my options are now open, would I be better off with a later bellhousing? I believe the bellhousings from ‘87-‘88 F150 were aluminum and used flywheels with the 50oz imbalance, but cannot find info if they used the smaller 157 tooth or larger 164 tooth version.

 

[toddz69]

I’m in a similar situation: Months ago I purchased an AX-15 with adapter intending to reuse the bellhousing from my 289 on a 5.0 from a 2000 Explorer. Finally got it delivered, but during the wait I gave up the 289 and bellhousing to a family friend who needed it more than I (long story). So I’m now needing a bellhousing to fit the adapter I purchased. Was about to pull the trigger on a C5TA-6394-A off eBay to be safe, but noticed the instructions from the Advance Adapters recommend bellhousings from 1987-88 F150 for hydraulic clutch (if I were to go that route). Since my options are now open, would I be better off with a later bellhousing? I believe the bellhousings from ‘87-‘88 F150 were aluminum and used flywheels with the 50oz imbalance, but cannot find info if they used the smaller 157 tooth or larger 164 tooth version.

Those trucks used the 164 tooth flywheel.

I'd personally use one of the earlier bell housings and use a clutch with a mechanical linkage, but that's just me.

Todd Z.

 

[DirtDonk]

And if you’re choosing a flywheel and need to pick an imbalance factor to match the engine you’re using, a later 80’s 5.0 would be the 50 ounce while a later 5.8 would still have the 28 ounce of an early engine.
The 351W/5.8W never changed from the original 28oz imbalance.

Since it sounds like you’re using a 5.0 liter engine presumably with a 50 ounce imbalance, you would use the later 5.0 flywheel from a truck.

 

[jamesroney]

I’m in a similar situation: Months ago I purchased an AX-15 with adapter intending to reuse the bellhousing from my 289 on a 5.0 from a 2000 Explorer. Finally got it delivered, but during the wait I gave up the 289 and bellhousing to a family friend who needed it more than I (long story). So I’m now needing a bellhousing to fit the adapter I purchased. Was about to pull the trigger on a C5TA-6394-A off eBay to be safe, but noticed the instructions from the Advance Adapters recommend bellhousings from 1987-88 F150 for hydraulic clutch (if I were to go that route). Since my options are now open, would I be better off with a later bellhousing? I believe the bellhousings from ‘87-‘88 F150 were aluminum and used flywheels with the 50oz imbalance, but cannot find info if they used the smaller 157 tooth or larger 164 tooth version.

The 87-88 F150 used an 11 inch clutch. The 157 tooth flywheel cannot fit an 11 inch clutch. The largest clutch that will physically fit on a 157 tooth flywheel is 10-3/8 inches in diameter. This means that the 87-88 F150 uses a 164 tooth flywheel.

AA peddles the aluminum bell as part of their SBF to Jeep CJ adapter Kit. That installation benefits from a hydraulic clutch conversion.

The only benefit that you will receive by using the 87-88 bell is if you decide to change to hydraulic. That 87-88 bell has a mounting provision for a slave cylinder.

 

[Tiko433]

I’m going to jump in on this …. Not for the original question …. But for something to look for since it’s not installed. I have had my AX 15 for a few years now and love it . BUT I have pulled it twice to stop a very small drip at the adapter. After talking to Matt from WH and the last Tenn SC he found a tech sheet I missed during my install. The tech sheet says to plug a small drain hole at the tail of the trans, I believe it wants to plug and seal the hole.
I have not done this yet so my Bronco is still marking its territory, so can’t say if it will solve my issue or not.
I just wanted to pass this on since it not installed yet .

 

[CowboyGrin]

Thanks for the input Todd, Paul, & James. Much appreciated.

One more question: The AA website says their conversion kit “requires a Ford truck bell housing.”

FORD 302 TO JEEP AX15

Ford Small Block to Jeep AX15 Transmission Adapter Kit

www.advanceadapters.com

Why would that be? Didn’t think there was a difference as long as the 164 tooth flywheel is used. The C5TA-6394-A was used in Mustangs. So was the C5AA-6394-B and C9AA-6394-A, both aluminum.

Bellhousings

Ford and Mustang bellhousings

www.mustangtek.com

I’m leaning towards the C5AA-6394-B for a little weight savings if it will work. Cannot find it was used in a truck application.

 

[DirtDonk]

That’s probably just their simple, easy way of giving you a better chance of getting a compatible bell housing.
They’re saying to use truck bell housings because it’s going to be the larger size. Where any normal mustang or other passenger car bell housing is very likely to be the smaller one.
Not sure if there were any applications where a passenger car used 164 tooth flywheel, but you’d have to dig to find out and be very careful what you buy.
With a truck version it’s virtually guaranteed you get the correct one.

As mentioned earlier the bell housing and flywheel size go together or the starter won’t match up.
There are most definitely differences.
And not everyone knows how to differentiate or have a nicely laid out chart of which exact part numbers would work.
So to just say “truck“ simplifies things.
Perhaps too much, but at least narrows it down.

 

[jamesroney]

Thanks for the input Todd, Paul, & James. Much appreciated.

One more question: The AA website says their conversion kit “requires a Ford truck bell housing.”

http://[URL][URL][URL][URL][URL]https://www.advanceadapters.com/5021

[/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]

Why would that be? Didn’t think there was a difference as long as the 164 tooth flywheel is used. The C5TA-6394-A was used in Mustangs. So was the C5AA-6394-B and C9AA-6394-A, both aluminum.

http://[URL][URL][URL][URL][URL]http://www.mustangtek.com/Bellhousings/Bellhousings.html

[/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]

I’m leaning towards the C5AA-6394-B for a little weight savings if it will work. Cannot find it was used in a truck application.

The C5TA prefix is the TRUCK prefix, and you have to watch out for Ford part numbers! Mustangtek says that you will find a C5TA-6394-A in a 69-70 Mustang with a 351...but I don't believe it, and it is still named the "truck" bell. (I do think that the 1971-73 Mustang 351 had the cast iron D1TA-A bell. But I thought that the 69-70 351's came with the C9AA-A bell) The MPC might show the C5TA-A as a universal replacement. The D1TA-A bell is just like a C5TA-A bell, but the clutch mount boss is not machined. But none of that matters for your Bronco.

So when AA says you need a "Ford Truck Bell housing" they don't mean it. It's just their "known good" recipe.

You don't need a truck bell. You can certainly use a passenger car bell. But that brings us right back to the original question.

1. Will you use hydraulic or mechanical Bronco clutch linkage?

If you use the factory linkage, the C5TA-6394-A "Truck Bell" is the one you want.
If you will use the AA external hydraulic slave cylinder, you want the 87 F150 bell.
If you will use an aftermarket internal hydraulic slave cylinder, ANY Ford small block bell from 65-72 will work, including the 157 tooth variety. (which you don't want...)

No reason to think that the C5AA-B (aluminum) bell never was used in a truck. But I think it would fit without modification.

 

[chuckji]

I’m going to jump in on this …. Not for the original question …. But for something to look for since it’s not installed. I have had my AX 15 for a few years now and love it . BUT I have pulled it twice to stop a very small drip at the adapter. After talking to Matt from WH and the last Tenn SC he found a tech sheet I missed during my install. The tech sheet says to plug a small drain hole at the tail of the trans, I believe it wants to plug and seal the hole.
I have not done this yet so my Bronco is still marking its territory, so can’t say if it will solve my issue or not.
I just wanted to pass this on since it not installed yet .

Hey Tiko, do you have a copy, or link to that tech sheet?

 

[Tiko433]

I sent you a PM
Ughh
I have not posted in a long time .. trying to figure out how to add a photo or link
……copy from sheet below
This is from page two ….
Header on sheet “STOCK JEEP TRANSMISSION TO BRONCO DANA 20”
Chrysler used an oil weep hole on the stock adapter housing. This weep hole was located in one of two locations: on the adapter surface where the transfer case mates to the adapter or on the bottom center of the casting near the crossmember foot. These weep holes were designed for the purpose of informing you when the seal in the tailhousing would fail. The adapter kit spud shaft does not always contact the seal in the Jeep tailhousings. To prevent oil leaking problems when the spud shaft does not contact the seal surface, we recommend plugging the weep hole using RTV Blue silicone (if on the adapter housing face), or RTV Blue silicone and a sheet metal screw (when located near the crossmember foot)

If you are going hydraulic clutch, like to see what direction you are going…. It’s on my list … if I have have to pull this thing for a 3rd for a little drip I would feel better about it if I got an hydraulic clutch out of it

 

[CowboyGrin]

Thanks again Paul & James, great insight. All the different part numbers and applications are confusing at best.

I like simple, so I’ll probably stick with the mechanical linkage and get the C5TA.

 

[DirtDonk]

One other thing to be aware of (don't remember if it's been discussed already?) is the type of clutch fork and pivot that are used.
Ford made at least one change during our years, where there were two types of clippy-doodles so your fork I believe must match your bell housing. Or at least the pivot that is riveted inside.
I don't know if the two types are directly interchangeable, where you can swap one fork type for another. Or if the two types of pivots can be swapped to the different bell housings if you already have a fork.
Maybe they're directly swappable, but they are different so just one more thing to be aware of.

Those pesky running changes the factories made do seem to happen at just the wrong place for any type of work we're doing!

Paul

 

[jamesroney]

Thanks again Paul & James, great insight. All the different part numbers and applications are confusing at best.

I like simple, so I’ll probably stick with the mechanical linkage and get the C5TA.

Where do you live? I have a couple of extra C5TA-A bells. If you are local, you can have it. Or if you go to the WH swap meet next week, I can bring it.

This one is a 66-67 pivot with the wire clip. The 68+ uses the spring clip. The pivots are interchangeable and were originally riveted...but can be bolted back with flat head bolts and nuts.

I find that the part numbers are the only things that make sense. It's when people start calling things "truck vs car" and "big vs small" and "early vs late" and "auto vs manual"

Just wait until we start talking about starters...