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building a high vacuum engine

Vincen

Contributor
Full Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2012
Messages
352
I am not really happy with the amount of vacuum my old, tired 302 makes in my 70. I am looking for some advice to rebuild the engine to make plenty of vacuum for the trans. and brake booster. What cam and lifter recommendations do you have to make the most efficient vacuum at around 8.5 or 9:1 compression?
 

Broncobowsher

Total hack
Joined
Jun 4, 2002
Messages
35,708
I don't get it? Vacuum is simply the cylinders being starved for a charge of air. The trend in the past few years is to get more efficient engines and those lack vacuum to the point we are seeing mechanical vacuum pumps being used. Not race car stuff, mass produced dealer showroom stuff. Vacuum is a pumping loss.

OK, dealing with old school. vacuum is still the lack of cylinders filling with a charge. Are you dealing with a low vacuum condition at idle or cruise? At cruise it can be something as simple as not enough gear. You won't be pulling much if any vacuum at cruise with a 302 pushing 33" tires on 3.50 gears. No cam can fix that.
Idle vacuum? it might be something as simple as putting a new timing chain that isn't stretched an extra 3". Just put the stock cam back into correct timing.

Just asking for a cam that makes more vacuum sounds simple. But it isn't. What problem are you having to make you want more vacuum?
 

ntsqd

heratic car camper
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,925
Loc.
Upper SoKA
You can ask for and get a cam that will make a lot of vacuum, but for a driven engine that's the wrong way to go about it. I know about the cam situation because I had a ring-side seat in watching the development of an engine for a very specific stationary use. That engine wasn't driven and didn't have to make a lot of power. Which is a good thing because I don't think that it would do either. It did and does make a lot of vacuum.

Define what you want the engine to drive like. Find a good engine shop and tell them this.
 
OP
OP
Vincen

Vincen

Contributor
Full Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2012
Messages
352
At this point I am seeing some rough idle while holding the brakes at lights etc. I just put the brake booster on about 2 years ago and was thinking the idle and hard brake pedal were related to poor vacuum. I can't find any leaks to speak of.
 

00gyrhed

Bronco Guru
Joined
Aug 3, 2006
Messages
2,428
High lift and short duration makes low end torque and high vacuum. Don't believe all the mustang go fast crap. The higher vacuum produced by the high lift and short duration relative to a race cam draws far more air into the cylinder at low rpm that say a cam of equal lift but longer duration and overlap. A really high lift short duration camshaft will idle dead smooth at 400-500 RPM will have a very high vacuum signal and will make tons of torque right off idle. At the other end of the spectrum a long duration camshaft with a lot of overlap will idle rough at 2000 rpm be a dog right off idle but will make a ton of HP at high rpm where the short duration small overlap cam will be done. The trick is picking a cam in the middle of the two that will actually fit your driving needs.

I run this cam in my 393 - comp cams 35-324-8. There are some (including the mustang tuner that tuned my EFI) that will tell you that cam wont even run a 393. So I just didn't tell him. its .544/.544 lift with 216/224 duration at .05". It is all done at 5000 RPM, but after watching my tach for years with a worn 302 I new 5000 would be fine. I have set the governor in my auto to shift WOT at 4800. That 100 MPH in third gear before it shifts to OD. Don't know about you but 396 ft-lbs of torque is plenty to get an early bronco going don the road in a hurry and it is enough torque to pick the front end off the ground. It idles dead smooth at 500 rpm and makes torque as soon as you tip in the throttle.

The big change in modern engines is the roller cam that allows very high lift at the valves without the excessive duration and overlap that used to be required with a flat tappet. You could grind a cam like my comp cam but as a flat tappet cam it wouldn't last 50,000 miles. roller cams and pollution controls have made the old long duration cams with overlap completely unnecessary in a vehicle like an EB. Very little overlap results from short duration and little over lap results in fewer unburned hydrocarbons. Basically a very street able roller cam will make more torque and HP, run cleaner and get better gas (it will also produce a high vacuum signal) that the old flat tappet grinds could without going to a lot of overlap. You are heading in the right direction. A cam that has a good strong vacuum signal is generally a better street and off road cam.

DO you really want a cam that makes HP beyond 5000 RPM. If so why?

If your torque curve is such that loads of torque are made due to the high valve lift (causing a high vacuum signal which in turn draws in more air) that will be much more drive able. The big surprise for me was 14 MPG on 93 octane fuel at 70 MPH.

High vacuum signal that is caused by a restricted intake is to be avoided at all costs. A high vacuum signal that is caused by the camshafts design and the fact that the throttle has to be closed to control the engine is a good think for the street and off road, as long as the camshafts design (duration is long enough) to support your top end or WOT requirements.
 

DJs74

Bronco Guru
Joined
Apr 1, 2014
Messages
1,135
Excellent write up by 00gyrhed! I would also suggest that you visit a couple of the camshaft manufacturers websites (Comp / Lunati / Ford Racing) and browse their available camshafts, jot down duration and lift numbers and the notes that are associated with each cam. Focus on the duration as mentioned and you'll be able to tie some advantages & disadvantages together by comparing camshafts. There are lots of cams available that will give you good power, driveability and good vacuum to assist your brakes. I would also suggest that you pick a cam based on your driving needs too... Look at the camshafts power band ranges, for example 0-5000 RPM or 3000-8500 RPM or whatever RPM range you prefer

DJs74
 

broncnaz

Bronco Guru
Joined
May 22, 2003
Messages
24,341
Rough Idle when on the brakes at a stop light usually equals a bad brake booster. So start there. Usually with vacuum boosters you may get a little rough idle when you first step on the brakes but it should clear up. If you had vacuum issues it would have a rough idle all the time and just get worse when your on the brakes.
There are a lot of other factors that can affect both vacuum at idle and your rough idle. You may need to adjust the timing if the engine is stock then you should have a points type ignition they wear and timing changes so the points need to be adjusted properly and the timing reset. If you have a electronic igintion well they dont need adjusting as often but still may need some adjustment with wear. Different timing setting can affect the vacuum readings. Along those lines different timing settings also affects the carberators idle mixture settings. So adjusting the timing may require you to adjust the idle mixture as well. As time goes by things wear and adjustments are needed.

To keep the motor explanation simple. In most cases the stock motor will pull pretty high vacuum at idle. Most built engines will pull lower vacuum at idle. In most cases your not going to swap out a part and get higher vacuum and the same driveability you have now or at least should have. Most of the cams we use in broncos will pull about same or just slightly less vacuum than a stock cam will pull but with the added benefit of more power in the range we need it most.
 

Explorer

Bronco Guru
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
4,390
Loc.
Raphine, Virginia
I'd check your current vacuum before getting too involved. Gauge is cheap and useful for tuning carb to max vacuum. 14hg is normally needed for power brakes.
 
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