Cigar Lighter + USB Issue

[oldy1978]

I asked if you could be wrong to see if you are willing to look at this issue with an open mind.

You can not claim both Ford's electrical grease (XG-12) is right (dielectric grease is wrong) and that silica/sand/glass makes a grease unsuitable for electrical connections because Ford's electrical grease (XG-12) contains silica. Your logic is flawed.

Think of the dielectric properties as an extension of the insulation and not the wires/connectors.

 

[jw0747]

I asked if you could be wrong to see if you are willing to look at this issue with an open mind.

You can not claim both Ford's electrical grease (XG-12) is right (dielectric grease is wrong) and that silica/sand/glass makes a grease unsuitable for electrical connections because Ford's electrical grease (XG-12) contains silica. Your logic is flawed.

Think of the dielectric properties as an extension of the insulation and not the wires/connectors.

You're an aircraft mechanic and you use dielectric grease on electric sockets and connections? With that in mind I would assume all the airplanes you worked on using the wrong stuff (dielectric grease per Steve83) probably crashed after experiencing faulty electric sockets and connections. Correct?

You have to realize that the people who wrote your electric tech manuals and recommended using dielectric grease are just flat wrong. But I'll still use dielectric on my electric sockets and connectors. My personal experience is it works well and has for a very long time.

 

[Steve83]

...Ford's electrical grease (XG-12) contains silica.

No, your reference is flawed. Only Ford's DIelectric grease contains silica; Ford's electrical grease is pure silicone grease. Go to this page, click the MSDS link, & note the date (last month):
https://www.fcsdchemicalsandlubrica...ease+and+Dielectric+Compound&category=Greases
The PREVIOUS version included silica/sand warnings. Either the criteria for reporting silica has changed, or the new production of that grease does not contain sand. But it's still thicker than electrical grease, and that page says it blocks electrical flow (voltage leaks).

This MSDS never mentioned sand:
https://www.fcsdchemicalsandlubrica...sp?product=Electrical+Grease&category=Greases

And silicone grease does have a high dielectric constant; but its physical properties (being a thin gel) make that irrelevant in the application of electrical terminals. Without sand to thicken it & create a solid layer, electrical grease flows out of the way of the terminals making contact. But it still fills any voids & surrounds the terminals to protect them from water, Oxygen, & CO2.

 

[Slowleak]

Fords electrical grease XG-12 does contain silica. It is relabeled Nyogel 360g. The Ford number listed on this Nye document matches the specification number for Xg-12 on the Ford site.
http://ep.yimg.com/ty/cdn/theshorelinemarket/760g.pdf
https://www.fcsdchemicalsandlubrica...sp?product=Electrical+Grease&category=Greases

 

[oldy1978]

Air voids don't hurt anything, and grease doesn't fill them.

And silicone grease does have a high dielectric constant; but its physical properties (being a thin gel) make that irrelevant in the application of electrical terminals. Without sand to thicken it & create a solid layer, electrical grease flows out of the way of the terminals making contact. But it still fills any voids & surrounds the terminals to protect them from water, Oxygen, & CO2.

I can't tell if you're learning or just not trolling hard enough?

My reference (WSB-M1C239-A) is the specification that Ford publishes for XG-12. How is it flawed? And NyoGel 760G, which meets Ford's specification, also contains silica (Thanks Slowleak). Are they both flawed?

SDSs don't have to list any of the chemicals unless the information is pertinent to health and environmental concerns. Also of note is the SDS for XG-12 has this: "Recommended use: Conductive grease for electrical connectors and switches" which is probably an error.

 

[Crush]

Like i said, i bought a tube labeled dielectric grease. It is very sticky and and a milky color. It says on the package for use on electrical connection especially in moist environments. I put it on my copper horn connections on my steering wheel adapter and on some other connections i have worked on since i bought it. So far it has not impeeded any functions that i am aware of. My horn connection that used to make a grinding sound now does not. I did this to prevent wear. We all know how much time it takes for the grant adapters copper rings to wear out(not long). So only time will tell on the performance. As far as whatever this grease is supposd to be called, If it says for use on electrical connections on the package and then causes problems because it was the wrong type of product then the manufacture is responsible for that damage. I dont care if they called it "rabbit shit". The intended purpose is on the lable and all labels also say only use as intended. Any use other than inteded is not the responsibility of the manufacture. So if it ie the wrong product and they didn't intend for it to be used on electrical connections, then why did they put that on the lable. We need to quit this bs about weather it is called dielectric grease electrical grease or rabbit shit and just buy a product that says it is used for electrical connections. For years when i was a kid my papaw and dad used lithium grease on trailer hook ups. It worked for them but that was prolly not what it was meant to be used for. Anyway. Off my soapbox and tired of the technical bs. Have a nice day!!

 

[Slowleak]

It's kind of like electrical tape. I use that stuff for everything. Sometimes I even wrap wires with it.

 

[Steve83]

I can't tell if you're learning or just not trolling hard enough?

Neither. I just left out a word when I typed what you quoted first because it was posted in the context of a reply to your post about DIELECTRIC grease (which is too thick to fill air voids in an electrical connector, but thick enough to work as a dielectric layer). The 2nd quote is about ELECTRICAL grease. So they're not contradictory.

SDSs don't have to list any of the chemicals unless the information is pertinent...

As I said - the PREVIOUS version of that MSDS called out silica as a component of the dielectric grease. So either they dropped the silica from the grease, or they changed the requirement to report it. Electrical grease never listed silica as a component.

Also of note is the SDS for XG-12 has this: "Recommended use: Conductive grease for electrical connectors and switches" which is probably an error.

Probably? Do you think there's a chance that the grease is actually conductive? Or do you think conductive grease would be a good choice for connectors & switches?

As to Nyogel...
I don't know who makes MC electrical grease. Just because someone claims to meet Ford specs - that doesn't mean they're selling the same thing. Look at all the ATFs that claim to meet Mercon specs, but they're clearly NOT the same fluilds. And Johnson Controls makes MC batteries. They also make Interstate batteries, DieHard Gold, WM EverStart, AZ DuraCrap, Optima, and MANY other brands. But they don't make all those batteries identically. So even if the same company makes Nyogel & MC electrical grease, that doesn't mean the greases are made the same. Ford makes the Festiva & the Mustang. Do you think they're the same car?

The only relevant facts are: electrical grease is for electrical contacts, and dielectric grease ISN'T. You can argue that chassis grease will work - my father (a successful chemical engineer) used it for many years on his boat & RV trailer connectors. But that doesn't mean that chassis grease is a good choice, or that it should be recommended for electrical connectors.

 

[oldy1978]

The only relevant facts are: electrical grease is for electrical contacts, and dielectric grease ISN'T.

Bold statement for the son of a chemical engineer to make without providing any real data.

 

[Steve83]

If the statement was made by a blind epileptic amateur birthday-party clown, it wouldn't change the veracity of the statement. And your refusal to acknowledge the facts doesn't mean they don't exist.

But since you didn't claim the statement was wrong, I assume you agree with it.

 

[oldy1978]

Fact: If electrical grease doesn't conduct electricity than it is dielectric.

 

[Steve83]

Not exactly. Electrical grease IS dielectric; but not merely because it doesn't conduct. Dielectric polarization is a specific physical reaction to voltage; it's not simply identical to insulating (although they're NEARLY synonyms). But there are many things which do not conduct electricity AND are not dielectric. Dielectrics are a specific category of insulator.

But electrical grease isn't "dielectric grease" because it can't maintain a film between 2 conductive parts; it's so watery that it just flows out, allowing them to make contact, and electricity to flow around the grease. That's why it's good for electrical connections.

Dielectric grease is thicker, which is why it's not good for electrical connections, and it IS good for maintaining a dielectric barrier.

 

[oldy1978]

Greases are non-Newtonian fluids so their viscosity changes when a shear force is applied. So you can actually have a thick grease (to block out dirt, air, and moisture once connected) that thins out during the mating of connectors (allowing metal on metal contact).

One example of a non-Newtonian fluid is ketchup...sometimes you can even hold the bottle upside down but the ketchup won't start flowing unless you shake or smack the bottle.

The electrical connectors in vehicles are exposed vibration and elevated temperatures, combined with awkward orientations. So a lower viscosity (thicker) grease is better if you want the connectors to stay protected longer.

 

[Crush]

Straight from permatex's website

So if it wont work on electrical connections and cause systems to fail then If the afore mentioned pilot put it on all his connections and then died in a fiery crash permatex would be responsible and the family would have a suit. Is that correct steve?
All im saying is if you buy a product that says it is for a purpose. Who cares what they call it!!
Here is a link with a write up of dielectric vs conducting grease. It even has a chart of the conductivity of alot of greases. Good reading. Boils down to dielectric not only conducts but conducts better than metal on metal and insulates the connnection from outside elements
https://www.w8ji.com/dielectric_grease_vs_conductive_grease.htm

 

[Steve83]

Greases are non-Newtonian fluids so their viscosity changes when a shear force is applied.

Agreed. But that doesn't mean it always drops to zero, or that any force is sufficient for any grease. Dielectric grease is thick; electrical grease is thin. If you want the terminals to make contact, use the thin grease.

So you can actually have a thick grease (to block out dirt, air, and moisture...

It doesn't take thick grease to block moisture or anything else. It only takes a non-permeable film. And that's what dielectric grease is specifically engineered to do, with respect to electricity.

...ketchup won't start flowing unless you shake or smack the bottle.

Now you're really getting off-topic!

The electrical connectors in vehicles are exposed vibration and elevated temperatures, combined with awkward orientations.

So are the ball joints, wheel bearings, & virtually every other greased component on a vehicle. So you're saying all those greases thin-out & allow metal-to-metal contact? Silicone grease is one of the best for NOT changing viscosity as temperature changes.

Straight from permatex's website...

Did you read it before you posted it?

...a product that says it is for a purpose.

What purpose does that say? Because what I see says it BLOCKS electricity (voltage leaks) exactly like what I've been saying all along. It does NOT say to put it on electrical terminals - it says it can protect CONNECTIONS from corrosion; not that it's good for electrical flow. You're incorrectly inferring something based on the briefest blurb about that product - you haven't read the actual instructions, which PROBABLY say (correctly) to use the grease only on the plastic & rubber parts of the connector to aid in assembly & disassembly, and to exclude moisture from the multi-pin cavity; not to put it on the actual terminals. And it doesn't say to put it on the spark plug terminals, either. Just like the Ford site, it says to use it to prevent the RUBBER BOOTS from sticking to the ceramic.

It's no wonder you're so confused by this - your reading comprehension is terrible. Read what it actually SAYS, and don't imagine it's saying things it DOESN'T say.

Who cares what they call it!

So who cares if they call it a Bronco or a Jeep? What's in a name? Why should you care what a word means - just use any old work two cey Watt Hugh ouannd. Wheel finger owt wut u mint.

...dielectric not only conducts but conducts better than metal on metal...

Did you actually read what you wrote there? %) Get a tube of dielectric grease, put a line of it on a plastic or glass surface (a known insulator), and touch some hot wires to each end of the grease line. Then tell us all how well it conducts, compared to touching the wires directly together.




This is getting really boring saying the same thing over & over, and having it misread, misinterpreted, & misunderstood every time. Take a bath in dielectric grease if you want - it won't bother me. I'll keep putting electrical grease in my connectors, and they'll keep working. Your results may vary.

 

[76 bronco J]

don't waste your time debating with steve83, it's too bad the full size forum didn't keep him.... & it's too bad he built his friend Frank a early bronco & now has a early bronco frame or this site probably could have avoided him.... VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVSteve83 has been permanently banned from FULLSIZEBRONCO.COM for repeatedly refusing to follow the rules. This staff action is not up for debate, review or discussion. We (the staff members of FSB) have made this final decision and we stand by it.

We are very aware that Steve is still out there... contacting members off site and trying to get answers to the details of his banning. The details are no longer relevant and we are absolutely done arguing with him or anyone else that would care to argue on his behalf. Steve was asked repeatedly, over the course of many years to follow our rules. He was warned, he was issued infractions and he was temporarily banned and still... he refused to simply follow the rules.

In our view... following the rules of FSB is an absolute requirement for any member to remain here on FSB and for FSB to continue to exist as a relevant and usable knowledge-base for the 78-96 FORD BRONCO's and a gathering place for those who like, own or appreciate them. We do not and will not make exceptions for anyone... from the newest and most annoying of noobies to the oldest and most beloved FSB veterans and/or staff members.

The majority of the few rules we are here to uphold have been reviewed, discussed, voted on and agreed to by the members of FSB. If you haven't been involved in the process, it's because you weren't here at the time. We take no pleasure in creating or enforcing more rules here and we try to avoid the process whenever possible... allowing our fellow members the freedom and responsibility to moderate each other and themselves in their regular activities, here on the site. Adding rules here is an absolute last resort and that is why we stick hard and fast to the few we have been forced to add over the years. Again, no member is exempt from following them.

Over the years it has become obvious to all of the staff members and many of the members of FSB that "skirting" the rules we have in place had become something of a game to Steve. This is NOT a game for us. We volunteer our time to do the best job we can for the membership and the site, as a whole. Playing "games", arguing endlessly and finding ways to work around our rules is simply not acceptable and to be quite honest, it's not just a horrible waste of our time and resources, it's disrespectful to the site, the staff and the membership.

As a result... Steve83 was finally and permanently banned from FULLSIZEBRONCO.COM.

We are here to serve the membership but we are also here volunteering our personal time to do this job for free, to help the site to continue to grow and improve. We prefer to keep our actions open and honest to our fellow members. We have been reluctant to spell out the reasons for Steve's banning because we know that he wants noting more than too bitch and moan, too complain and argue... whether it's here or anywhere else online and we are simply done. We are done justifying our actions to him. We are done laying out all the details of our rules for him to pick apart and/or exploit loopholes. We are done playing games with him. We are done putting up with his piss-poor attitude and endless arguments. Just because you are good at arguing does not mean that you are right or righteous. It's simply means that you refuse to accept the reality of the situation. Well... we are done putting up with Steve83 and that is the final reality.

We regret that these actions may have upset or confused some of our members but we do not take the act of banning ANY member lightly and you can rest assured that we have discussed the pro's and con's of our actions and feel that this was the best action we could take for the benefit of the site, as a whole.

We thank you for your understanding, your time and your support.

Sincerely,
FSB Staff

 

[Steve83]

%) %) %)

 

[bronconut73]

I bet Steve83 is really nice in person.
In my experience the biggest assholes on line are some of the nicest people in person....I know weird right(?)...but that has been my observation....

 

[oldy1978]

From https://www.nyelubricants.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/0/4e263669698daf76b7c96417b9a23cee/files/vol_27_no_2.pdf:

"One major change that has affected automotive connector lubrication since
NyoGel 760G was introduced in the late 1980s is the proliferation of connectors
on or near the engine block. NyoGel 760G’s high-temperature limit of 125°C
disqualifies it for such applications."

Nyogel 760G is made to meet Ford's WSB-M1C239-A specification. 125°C = 257°F

 

[Slowleak]

I bet Steve83 is really nice in person.
In my experience the biggest assholes on line are some of the nicest people in person....I know weird right(?)...but that has been my observation....

Haha......... I like the way you did that.