Coil spring touching upper mount issue

[CopperBronco]

I’m installing new heavy duty coil cups. Driver side went in fine, but passenger side the coil spring is touching the upper mount? I lowered and moved coil spring towards the rear but it still wants to go this way… I don’t think any parts are backwards. Photos are below…. Bronco frame is on jack stands and axle is lowered down to create space in these photos, so coils aren’t compressed very much, just slightly with a jack.

Before I tore it apart it had OE coil cups, also bent a little… but wondering if new cups are simply not lining up since coil springs fit fine before. Curious what you folks would do. I tried to seat the coil spring as far back as possible in cup and upper shock mount. Is it possible it will straighten up with weight back on vehicle?

Only other question? Which way should slotted holes face on coil cup? Towards front or rear of Bronco? Maybe I have them on backwards? Although driver side looks very centered.

Thanks in advance for help!

 

[DirtDonk]

Can’t say with 100% certainty either way yet, which way they will go when finished. You just can’t go buy anything until you compress the springs to their expected ride height.
As the axle extends downward it also tilts the spring mounts/cups forward so the coil springs naturally bow forward. And sometimes in all sorts of directions because of the nature of a coil.
They also sometimes bow inward or outward too due to the shift caused by the trackbar.
Add trackbar shift to radius arm twist to a coil spring, and you get wonky shapes.

So while contact something to be aware of, it’s not going to be in its natural state until it’s got full weight on the suspension.
It’s also not really detrimental to anything, other than our sanity of course.

 

[DirtDonk]

I should add that to be certain what causes the contact you also have to measure the frame precisely.
The manufacturer wasn’t exactly 100% diligent in the making of our frames. We have found Coil Spring Towers higher and lower on the frame, farther forward or back, and radius arm frame mounts farther forward or back on each side.

It could still be a coil issue I suppose, with modern manufacturing and imported steel products being what they are, but there are plenty of aspects to this dilemma to verify.

Certainly make sure that your spring cups are the same since they are simple fabricated parts and can be made incorrectly just as easy as the next part.
Definitely don’t want bad parts getting put in a new build.

I may have read through your first post too quickly. At this time you are just replacing the lower cups? Is that correct? The springs have been in an already used and you did not notice this issue before it sounds like.
I’ll have to think about that some more.

 

[CopperBronco]

Yes, it all fit before, the difference is all new radius bushings, c bushings, and heavy duty coil cups. I could put old OE ones back on and see what happens. Probably should sort out before I finish installing all new adjustable trac bar, tie rod, and drag link.

 

[DirtDonk]

If you can, that would be the ultimate test to narrow it down. The modern HD coil cups do tend to hold the springs "looser" by a bit, to allow more articulation and such, and avoid crushing like the originals too of course, but it should not be enough to cause things to hit. Unless it's just a borderline case and the extra looseness of the cups did allow that last bit of shift.

But before you do anything like that, I would compress the springs to ride height of 7" between the bottom of the frame rail and the top of the axle tube, plus whatever the lift is.
If they are they 3.5" coils, then shot for approx. 10-11 inches gap.

I would in fact finish installing the trackbar first too, in order to center the axle when you do this test. Nothing really matters except for how it sits near enough at ride height to show how it will live most of it's life.
Until you finish the install you can't compare old to new spring cups accurately.

Paul

 

[mrdrnac]

I had the same issue sometime ago. Here is the thread:

Coil Spring Hitting Spring Tower

My Passenger side Coil Spring, keeps hitting my spring tower and making noise. Yesterday I took the load off of the spring and loosened the top bracket that holds the coil. I then pushed the coil over away from the front side of the tower where it was hitting, and then re-tightened the top...

classicbroncos.com

P.S. Put in a cut and turned HP Dana 44 with 6 degrees of Castor and the coil problem is solved, no more touching the front of the towers. Good luck.

 

[CopperBronco]

I had the same issue sometime ago. Here is the thread:

http://[URL]https://classicbroncos.com/forums/threads/coil-spring-hitting-spring-tower.280525/

[/URL]

P.S. Put in a cut and turned HP Dana 44 with 6 degrees of Castor and the coil problem is solved, no more touching the front of the towers. Good luck.

You’re saying you drilled the coil cup hole to sit farther back on c caps? Trying to understand what you mean by “cut”.

Thanks for thread… I did just add 7 degree c bushings as my camber was way off. Caster wasn’t to spec, but very close to factory spec… now with new bushings and all adjustable steering linkage, axle centered, steering box centered, etc… should be pretty damn good… hoping when I go to alignment shop…

 

[mrdrnac]

Cut and Turn was done to the outer axle end "C"'s grind off the welds turn the ball joint "C"s as they are called, which gives you all the castor you want plus a good driveshaft/pinion angle. Big job but worth it in my case, I think what allowed me to get my lower coil cups horizontal, which helps keep the coils centered in the towers, was using BCB adjustable radius arms, when you adjust in castor with them, they rotate the whole front arm assembly including the coil cups up towards horizontal.

 

[CopperBronco]

So I called Toms and Duff about this today. No immediate clear answers… they will get back to me. But Toms said it was unusual for a C bushing to cause that. Might pull coil cup and try install one more time see if I can make any noticeable difference. Will also compare pre drilled hole locations to other makers or heavy duty coil cups… maybe my bolt holes are too far forward? Anybody else has this issue after all new radius arm bushings, 7 degree c bushings, leveled radius arms (no more lean!), and switching from OE coil cups to heavy duty ones?

Thanks!

 

[DirtDonk]

The C bushings themselves can’t cause it directly. Neither can the axle. The bushings are simply twisting the axle inside the arms so no direct influence on the springs angle.
However the arms and their angle have an absolutely direct effect on what happens to the springs. Including the springs themselves if one is holding more tension on the chassis than the other.

But the indirect effect of putting torque down the line into the frame that can cause a lean, could possibly somehow affect the spring and impart a bow.
I don’t see it doing that, but it doesn’t mean it can’t be true!

Again though, you can only verify any of these dynamics when the vehicle is it ride height, the axle centered and extensive measuring done to verify what is different about this one.

Coils do all sorts of unusual things when they are twisted in one direction or another. Such as bending in a different direction!

 

[CopperBronco]

The C bushings themselves can’t cause it directly. Neither can the axle. The bushings are simply twisting the axle inside the arms so no direct influence on the springs angle.
However the arms and their angle have an absolutely direct effect on what happens to the springs. Including the springs themselves if one is holding more tension on the chassis than the other.

But the indirect effect of putting torque down the line into the frame that can cause a lean, could possibly somehow affect the spring and impart a bow.
I don’t see it doing that, but it doesn’t mean it can’t be true!

Again though, you can only verify any of these dynamics when the vehicle is it ride height, the axle centered and extensive measuring done to verify what is different about this one.

Coils do all sorts of unusual things when they are twisted in one direction or another. Such as bending in a different direction!

I did have all weight down and axle centered… I pulled apart tonight, and am checking a few things. When I put back together if coil spring not corrected what should I be measuring to see what’s possibly off? I just wondered with axle rotated from C bushing, does it cause coil cup to face more downward? Vs level with the axle? Then causing spring to bow forward? Although driver side didn’t do that.

Just to be certain, the way I centered axle was with weight on the vehicle, trac bar unhooked at frame, and turned steering wheel to move the frame on top of the axle. Then once centered adjusted trac bar to hold axle in place. I could center axle with a racket strap as well and with weight off vehicle. But figured weight on most accurate.

Also should I torque down rear radius arm castle nuts at frame with weight off vehicle or on? I’m assuming on, and seeing 80-120 ft lbs, but thought maybe of radius arms aren’t torqued all the way then it could allow axle to sit just a tad forward. Just racking my brain for any possible issues or newbie dummy mistakes.

 

[DirtDonk]

When I put back together if coil spring not corrected what should I be measuring to see what’s possibly off?

Everything. But mainly anything that can effect where the coil cups and springs mount.
So to that end:
1. Distance from radius arm frame bracket to coil tower. Multiple locations since the towers are just stamped steel and probably not exact.
2. Distance from radius arm frame bracket to lower coil cup and the mounting bolt holds in the arm.
3. Distance from some other known location to coil towers to make sure they're the same location on each side of the frame.
4. Coil tower height.
5. How the coil sits in the lower retainer cup.
6. How "wide" are the spring towers in relation to the frame.
7. How much gap between the inside of the spring coil wire to the outside surface of the frame on each side. This is potentially skewed, but it would be good to know anyway just as a reference.
8. Re-re-verify that the axle is in the center of the frame and how the springs would land.

I just wondered with axle rotated from C bushing, does it cause coil cup to face more downward? Vs level with the axle? Then causing spring to bow forward?

No. It can't since the coil cup is not only not mounted to the axle, but is not even in physical contact with the axle.
The only thing the coil retainer cup contacts is the top of the radius arm. And the arm is only related to the frame (rear mounts) and the angle dictated by the height of the springs.

Just to be certain, the way I centered axle was with weight on the vehicle, trac bar unhooked at frame, and turned steering wheel to move the frame on top of the axle. Then once centered adjusted trac bar to hold axle in place. I could center axle with a racket strap as well and with weight off vehicle. But figured weight on most accurate.

Not just most accurate, but the ONLY accurate version.
Using any other position cannot possibly center the axle because the trackbar is always swinging it back and forth depending on the spring's compression or extension lengths. The only legitimate "center" is the one where the vehicle is sitting at it's actual ride height.
I suppose you could experiment with shift and decide that for one vehicle moving the axle to the left or right would make it more stable when bouncing around, but we've never experimented with that (maybe Ford bothered?) and so centered-at-ride-height seems the most logical location.

Also should I torque down rear radius arm castle nuts at frame with weight off vehicle or on? I’m assuming on, and seeing 80-120 ft lbs, but thought maybe of radius arms aren’t torqued all the way then it could allow axle to sit just a tad forward. Just racking my brain for any possible issues or newbie dummy mistakes.

Does not matter that much here when or where you torque them. But I would do as you suggest and wait until the weight is on the suspension. No reason other than that feel-good factor.
But yes, if they are not evenly spaced, that would allow the arms to move (forward only I would think) but move with no control, making it possible for one arm to be further forward than the other.
Not by much though, I'm sure. Maybe 1/4" or less? But who's to say that's not enough to cause one spring to act different from the other. I would say it's entirely likely one spring would have a different "shape" if one arm was different. It's changing the wheelbase too. Again, by just a fraction of an inch, but since we're picking nits here, a difference is a difference whether it has any major effect or not.

paul

 

[DirtDonk]

Since you have it apart you could even swap springs side to side (if you have not already?) and see if the issue changes sides.
If it does, you have a spring issue I would think. But you can't do anything else or it's not an accurate determination. Just the springs.

If the problem stays the same then it's either with the vehicle frame, the radius arms, or the lower cups.
Since the HD cups only hold the springs loosely compared to factory clamps (more articulation and easier installation) there could be some shift that's inherent from the rest of the components but that the new cups are allowing to have an effect with.
Not sure what can be done about that short of shimming things until they sit perfectly, or elongating the holes more to allow you to shift the final position of the cup.
Or go back to stock clamps. (And hope that actually fixes it!)

Was it in this discussion it was mentioned that the old cups were kind of crushed? That's pretty common, but one thing it does do is let the springs move in a different way. So if things were perfect before, the springs would bow slightly after. But if the springs were already bowed, the settling of the cups might actually "fix" the offset and let the springs sit more naturally.

But the bottom line is that if the tops of the radius arms are not perfectly set directly beneath the clamping position of the coils, and if the radius arms are not perfectly flat/parallel to the natural position of the spring in the tower, then getting the springs to sit perfectly is simply a hit-or-miss experimental proposition.
Broncos are not always perfect, nor are springs. Change multiple components and, well... Things change!

Just stating some "things" on the subject. Not trying to get out of an issue, so if our cups are the only thing holding the springs crooked, then we will take them back.
Just do what you're doing and check as much as you can before deciding which way to go.

Thanks!

Paul

 

[CopperBronco]

Got it maybe I’ll swap springs… springs are only 9 months old or so. I’m assuming they’re still good… thanks for the ideas, will follow up.

 

[DirtDonk]

Yeah, by “bad spring“ though I was sort of referring to any variation in the metallurgical make up of the wire. So newish is good, but not always perfect.
Not that it isn’t sufficient to act as spring, but that the internal dynamics might vary ever so slightly from one to the other.

So swapping the springs will at least verify one way or the other.

 

[CopperBronco]

I repositioned coil spring and got it off front side off upper frame mount, but it’s in there a little different. It seems like the passenger coil isn’t as long as the driver one, like it almost got cut off an inch short or something… anyone ever seen that problem? I feel like if I had more length to wrap into coil cup or upper bracket it would seat better in upper frame mount, there are those circular indents for coil spring to seat into up there and my passenger one isn’t in all the way from what I can tell. I’m guessing while driving it will eventually settle in there and touch mount again… see photos, any risk with upper bracket having too much pressure on it?

 

[CopperBronco]

I measured up tonight on this… almost everything exactly the same, only a couple variants of a 1/16”, or 1/8”… I doubt that’s causing it. I also used a level and checked angle of coil cups and almost identical. Also Bronco sitting super level side to side from the front, left and right side of bumper (which is welded to the frame) are exact same measurements and visually looks straight too. For now I’m gonna drive it like this and see if that passenger coil starts to slip forward as I drive it. See how things settle in. I’m assuming that upper clip/bracket doesn’t ever snap on anybody unless they are going hard off road, correct? Mine are brand new as well, so not old and worn. Going to torque to spec tonight. Probably already there though… just need to double check I didn’t over tighten.

 

[DirtDonk]

In fifty years I think I've only ever seen one break. Not sure what the circumstances were, but it was an oddity rather than anything remotely common.
Maybe some of the hardcore users here have had more experience along those lines. Basically though there is little to no stress on them naturally. Things really have to tweak, the suspension has to be pulled out tight (and the shock not limiting the down travel), or the clamp itself has to be deformed to be under some kind of pressure.
So not a lot of opportunity for failure.

I could not really see what you were talking about regarding the previous pictures showing a difference in how the clamps are holding the springs though. Or was it the spring sitting slightly skewed?
Was the skew after you twisted and pushed to get it off the tower metal?

Paul

 

[Chief Master Sergeant]

I had this same issue not too long ago. Affected the ride as well. I bought the T-Rex arm from Duffs and used the two rear holes for mounting the lower cups. Centered the spring in the upper mount perfectly. An expensive fix, but no more squeak and a much better ride.

 

[DirtDonk]

If it was a simple locating issue, re-drilling the spring cups "might" accomplish the same thing.
How far apart were the pairs of holes on the new arms Chief?

Paul