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Dana 44 When To Say When?

Okie69

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Alright everyone I'm getting sick of breaking Dana 44 parts. I've got a spidertrax housing already and a 609 has always been the plan for next big upgrade. That being said I really don't want to bite the bullet on the 5-6k...or more that its going to take to get the spidertrax under it right now. Is it worth doing the D44 RCV and yukon hardcore lockouts right now for a little over 2k and try limping it along for another year or do I just start putting aside the 609 fund and do that sooner rather than later? I can sell the D44 stuff later to recoup a chunk of whatever I do.

I broke a stub shaft at ocbr a few weeks ago and then blew apart a superjoint this past weekend that one took out the ears on both axles shafts as well. So I'm down right now unless you count 3 wheel drive as being ready to go. :LOL:
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Yeller

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Put the funds toward a 609. Even with RCV’s you’re going to continue to bleed parts. For your use, vehicle, and running crew, it is going to happen, even keeping in mind that your treating it like you do car door handles 😂

Put chomoly replacement shaft in it and run it very gingerly until the 609 is ready, everything is WAY beyond its design capacity.
 
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Okie69

Okie69

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Why not go straight to one ton axles? I got my 05+ 60 and 10.5 for $1000 from the junk yard.
Rear is already 4 linked, stretched 35 spline all that stuff. Don't plan on redoing that unless I absolutely have to in the future. The 609 has always been the end goal. Extra steering angle and all that.
 

Yeller

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on the 609 please, please go 8 lug.

doing that gives you the option to pick up a super duty 05 or up 60 to use for outers and brakes, saving a bunch of cash. The unit bearings and rotors are easy to drill to 8x6.5. If bent on 5x5.5, that can be done as well but a little more work. Also keep in mind the wheel stud and lug nut issue's G has had with his.

FYI if I was building a front 609, I would use super duty parts for steering, brakes and hubs, plenty robust and all normal off the shelf parts other than drilling the bolt pattern in the hub which can be done with a drill guide and a drill press.

keep in mind using super duty parts allows the use of 1550 ujoints, removing the need for exotic ujoints, to me this is the major reason to run them, saving twice, once on the parts (all used readily available) and again on axle shafts.
 
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jamesroney

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OK, here's where people are going to jump into their silos. and launch their mortars from their entrenched positions. But let's be real for just a minute, and deal with facts instead of emotion.

1. The Ford 9 inch is without question, the most over-rated, under performing, worthless pile of excrement to ever get near the rear of a pickup truck. The fact that Hot Rodder's, race drivers, and Frank Currie believe otherwise is irrelevant. The 9 inch is just a pile of junk, and has never been worthy of off road use.

2. The Dana 44 is the second most over-rated, under performing, worthless pile of excrement to ever get near the front of a pickup truck. (Dana 30 being #1) The fact is that the entire off road community, Jeep / IH / Ford / GM and Dodge are all wrong. Nobody builds a 44 on purpose, and nobody who ever built a 44 didn't actually need something better.

3. The Dana 60 front axle is the finest front drive axle ever installed under a pickup truck between 1973 to 1998. After that, it received unit bearings and became garbage.
The GM Corporate 14 bolt is the best rear drive axle ever installed in a pickup truck. And the M1008 CUCV with factory Detroit locker is the undisputed king of them all.
And yes, absolutely 100% 8 lug. No serious person runs a junkyard 5 lug anything. Only possible thing that's worse is a 6 lug.

I am talking about 100% factory, not-upgraded, not modified, not touched. Zero aftermarket dollars. Junkyard axles. Burn them out of the donor with a torch, and weld them into your project. No, you may not remove the cover. OR change the oil. Set it, and forget it.

As soon as you are willing to dump cash into upgrades, then the world flips on it's head...and the Ford 9 inch suddenly becomes the rear axle of preference. The Dana 44 starts to look promising. BUT you MUST spend AFTERMARKET money.

The locking differential is probably the single greatest contribution to the destruction of the Dana 44 on the planet. The FIRST thing that most people do is probably the 3rd or 4th thing that they should do. The First thing you should do to your Dana 44 front axle with a locker is to plug the front disc brake hoses, (or re-install some manual drum brakes) and set the steering stops to max of 15 degrees of steering. The thing that makes the Early Bronco so awesome off road is the ability to turn the steering wheel. Millions of old Jeep Dana 25's survived simply because the leaf springs were so close to the tires that you couldn't actually steer them. Bad news, you have to make a 10 point turn to get anywhere. Good news...you rarely snapped an axle u-joint. The worst possible thing you can do to a Hooke's type universal joint (you call them Spicer, or Cardan) is to actually steer them. You can prove this to yourself with a socket extension and universal joint from your tool box. Just angle the joint from 0 degrees to 90 degrees, and tell me how well it transmits torque. THIS is the greatest problem with the RCV upgrade in a D44. Did you ever wonder why your front axle inner shafts are 1.31-30 spline from the pumpkin to the knuckle...but then the outer stubs neck down to 1.09 diameter and 19 spline? It's because of steering, and at full lock, that little stub is vastly stronger than the u-joint can handle. Straight ahead...the u-joint wins every time. As soon as you steer it...the joint just can't keep up.

So why install a Rzeppa CV joint into a 44? Is that a good compromise? Well...No. Actually, yes...it's a fantastic upgrade, and is the first upgrade you should do. BUT it is so expensive, and it moves the failure point right back to that 1.09 inch stub. So Yes, but No. If you install an RCV Rzeppa CV bell, you are foolish not to install 30 spline outers. But now you are spending $2K to move the failure point from the Spicer 760x joint to the INNER 30 spline axle shaft. Which makes you realize that it costs about the same to run 35 spline inners. And big bell RCV's, and 35 spline outers. And now the 8.5 inch ring gear and with the ARB RD06 / RD166 The ring gear is now the fuse.

So this is WHY there are two totally different camps of "what size of axle do i need to run 35 inch tires?" The answer is 1.5 inch, 35 spline. And at least 5-332x stubs, if you plan to steer it.

Notice that the answer was not Fabricated housing, or anything that remotely looks like a 9 inch in the front. Because of #1 above. There is not, will not be, and has never been a decent selectable locker for a 9 inch. You just can't get there from here. Run a Spool, and the 9 inch is king. Run a Detroit, and the 9 inch is OK. Anything else, and the 9 inch is junk. The ONLY reason to run a 9 inch or a fabbed housing up front is because it's easy to weld. That's it. You can MIG weld to carbon steel. So you fab a housing. With the advent of the Currie 60, or the Pro-Rock 60 or the TeraFlex, the ground clearance issue is moot. Putting a low pinion 9 inch carrier in the front end is just silly. Tru-Hi 9 is a reasonable engineering compromise, and I approve. BUT only if you run 35 spline, and a Detroit, and you don't care about street manners. There is almost nothing a 9 inch high pinion can do that a HP 60 won't also do. Granted the 9 inch weighs less. And again, if you run 35 spline shafts, then you NEED 35 spline stubs, and big bell RCV's.

That being said, I would 100% install a fresh set of RCV's into your front 44, and run the 19 spline outers. Then wait until you puke out your ring gear before I built a nice D60.

No matter what you do, you should have a plan. I wish I had gone 8 lug. But Alas, I'm still 5 lug.
 

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ntsqd

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I'm assuming that Okie69 is crawling in the big rocks?

I converted my FSB to 8 lug to get better brakes using all stock, on the shelf in any parts store parts. I put a 35 spline D60 under the rear (with an OX because I wanted to try one out) and converted the D44 TTB to 8 lug using GM 3/4t 10 bolt parts to get the much bigger discs. Better brakes is what drove all of that. Like in building super tough axles, getting better brakes has two basic options: spend a bunch of money on aftermarket parts that are a moderate upgrade, or go with larger all stock parts from a heavier truck for less cost, but possibly more effort.

When I researched it I found that a rear D60, complete less brakes, weighed only a few pounds more than the complete with brakes rear 8.8 that I had destroyed twice on mostly pavement with a 250k miles old 5.8L (& no drag race launches!). A rear 14BFF weighs quite a bit more, even w/o brakes on it. Since the focus of the truck is higher speed use that made the decision easy. RCV's for a TTB are an extremely bad option unless you like taking axles apart for routine maintenance. I don't. No big rocks for this rig, so no need to go that far.

Based on this experience I agree with use complete 1 ton axles instead of building exotic lighter duty axles. Heck, I know where there used to be and may still be a set of Marmon-Herrington steering axles if you want to go really big!
Unless the constant building/breaking/building struggle is what you enjoy, set aside what you think that you want and look at where you want to be at the end. Will what you think that you want actually deliver that? As a casual but analytical observer with decades of experience in observing and occasionally participating in this I don't think that it will. I'm also with James in that I have no interest in a 9" under an off-road vehicle. there are vastly better choices commonly available. For some of the very same reasons I'm much more inclined to run one on a street car.

If you aren't going to just go buy a set of '05+ SD axles and shove them under the Bronco then I'd do what Yeller is suggesting.
 

Yeller

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@jamesroney and I are pretty much on the same page, other than I think there are appropriate places for a unit bearing. Not denying a spindle, serviceable tapered bearings, and a removable hub are not superior, just not always required.

@ntsqd yup, plays in the box rock box with his knuckle draggin buddies, which includes me 😂
 
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Okie69

Okie69

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Thanks for the replies everyone! I've ordered the stuff to get back up and running for now so I can take time to make a decision. I wanted to keep the long arms for awhile, but now I'm even doubting if I'll be able to weld wedges on and modify enough stuff to use those on the 3.5" tube housing up front.

I'm trying really hard not to replace the rear as well as the front, but the more I dig it seems like that is likely what's going to happen.
 

ntsqd

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Agree on the Unit Bearings. Maybe not (yet) appropriate under a 3/4t or 1t truck that gets worked hard, but they do have their place. If the parts had been easier to find and not so seriously expensive the D60 being built for the Wagon would have gone that route.
Recall how sometimes violent people's reactions to IFS was when they first came out? It was justifiable then, now look at the IFS/IRS comp crawlers out there. In some situations they have the advantage I'd guess or folks wouldn't be messing about with them. I expect that Unit Bearings are on a similar development curve.

FWIW there is no way that I would keep the OEM radius arm wedges on any custom axle build. Not when there are better ways to get to the same place. In general I'd be copying the basic design used on long radius arm TJ/LJ/XJ front suspensions. That is if I didn't go to a 3 or 4 link.
 

jamesroney

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Agree on the Unit Bearings. Maybe not (yet) appropriate under a 3/4t or 1t truck that gets worked hard, but they do have their place. If the parts had been easier to find and not so seriously expensive the D60 being built for the Wagon would have gone that route.
Recall how sometimes violent people's reactions to IFS was when they first came out? It was justifiable then, now look at the IFS/IRS comp crawlers out there. In some situations they have the advantage I'd guess or folks wouldn't be messing about with them. I expect that Unit Bearings are on a similar development curve.

FWIW there is no way that I would keep the OEM radius arm wedges on any custom axle build. Not when there are better ways to get to the same place. In general I'd be copying the basic design used on long radius arm TJ/LJ/XJ front suspensions. That is if I didn't go to a 3 or 4 link.
I urge you to watch the youtube on the Mercedes sprinter van VS30. It has a massive 1-9/16 axle shaft, and of course a 3/4 float unit bearing out back. Also take a google on the 2022 F150 Max tow RECALL.

Unit bearings absolutely have a place in automotive applications. Right next to lifetime automatic transmission fluid, and electric parking brakes. And gasoline engine turbochargers, plastic oil filter housings, and anything ever built by the French. When I was younger, the answer was the garbage can, or dumpster. Now that I'm older, maybe the recycle bin.

Unit bearings CAN only work when the applied load from the wheel is centered between the bearings. Otherwise, they are forced to cantilever, and they are absolutely horrid at reacting to bending moment. This is why you see them on FWD cars, with enormous wheel offset. In that rare and carefully controlled instance in your 2000 lb honda Civic, you can get by with a wheel bearing with a 3 inch OD. That same load can be carried with a 1.25 inch timken tapered roller.

Somebody is going to tell me about how their Chevy Silverado K2500 has gone 2 million miles with no problem, and of course I can't dispute it. Don't care.

Then someone is going to mention a purpose built buggy with a front axle weight of 2000 lbs riding on a Super Duty 60 with a Timken SP940201 unit cartridge and I'm going to throw a fit. Because you are taking a bearing with a design envelope L1 capable of carrying 158,000 lbs and a static load of 200,000 lbs, and de-rating it to 6,000 lbs in a super-duty, and it will only survive in a 2k buggy. So no, I'm still a hater.

But yes, if you put a 5 inch OD bearing into a massive casting, and apply 1000 lbs of static load on it, I suppose it might survive for 1M cycles before you throw it away.

All of that is to get to my point, which is that the Duff arms in my pic are attached to my 3-1/8 king pin tubes using Jim Cole's Bloody Knuckle Garage weld on mounts. So yes, that pic above is using Duff Long Arms, with No wedges.
 

ntsqd

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See? They do have a place, in the 2,000 lbs buggy!
LOL.....

More seriously, that above is what I was alluding to, our understanding and use of Unit Bearings is just beginning. Eventually they may become useful in specific applications. Whether or not they've long ago patted our faces with a shovel remains to be seen. It could be that when someone perfects a contactless magnetic bearing that can carry 100,000 lbs of lateral loading that they get dropped by the wayside. Who knows?

Jim Cole is a good guy, wish that he were still in the field of EB's.
 
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