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Drag Link Length compared to Track bar length

tad3790

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Jan 8, 2015
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So, I am like the millionth EB owner chasing front end/steering/handling issues. Long story short... new 3.5" Duff kit, all new bushings, new tires and wheels, lowered track bar, adjustable track bar, new steering likage top to bottom (yes, lowered pitman also), new ball joints and I finally have it handling... "ok" which is what I think is the norm, and frankly livable. While I feel that the 7 degree bushings dont quite get a "great" caster (at least on mine) ... it goes down the road ok. (wish I could get more without a major ordeal) Anyway...

Here is my question... I have the track bar and drag link at about the closest relationship to one another (as parallel as possible) as I can. They are pretty close. However, I have a nagging decel. and accel. bump steer still. Not crazy... to where I am white knuckling the wheel...mild... just really annoying. If I go over a fairly sharp knoll at speed... off to left I veer. Hard Braking ... off to right I veer.

I noticed tonight that from center to center of rod end ... the track bar is 28"... and center to center on my drag link is 29". Could it be that the difference in LENGTH is causing my annoying bump steer (they are traveling on 2 different arcs!)? I can see that I have enough adjustment on all the new stuff I bought to get them both to the same length... I just have not found where anyone is talking about matching length as much as they talk about just hgetting them parallel. I do have them currently as parrallel as I can AND STILL HAVE BUMP STEER!

Has anyone else had such an issue... or played with matching track bar and drag link lenght?
 

DirtDonk

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Yes it can, but I don't think that one inch is doing what you describe.

How much lift and what tires?
What year and what type of steering linkage?
Any locker in the rear end?

Let us know some more of what's on the rig and we'll see what we can come up with. Doesn't sound right, but you're likely on the right track.

Paul
 
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tad3790

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thanks for your help! It's a dana 44 under a '67 with disc brakes... power steering.... new 3.5" Duff suspension. No locker (open rear end). Steering is NOT the Y... I bought the new linkage with all the adjustment points when I bought the lowered Pitman. Tires are BFG all terrain. They are 325-65R18 . I dont like them... they came with the rig. They are 34.5 tall
 

bronconut73

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thanks for your help! It's a dana 44 under a '67 with disc brakes... power steering.... new 3.5" Duff suspension. No locker (open rear end). Steering is NOT the Y... I bought the new linkage with all the adjustment points when I bought the lowered Pitman. Tires are BFG all terrain. They are 325-65R18 . I dont like them... they came with the rig. They are 34.5 tall

I can dig it.
You probably want a more traditional wheel/tire size.
But those 18's are probably good for your present diagnostic effort ....
 

Glass Pony

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Which Duff track bar drop bracket do you have? If you have this one with the 2 holes side by side and if you are presently mounted in the hole on the passenger side, extend your adjustable track bar out to the hole on the drivers side and try it out. That should give you an extra inch or so. It wouldn't cost anything but your time.

http://www.dufftuff.com/Track_Bar_Drop_Bracket_1966_75_Bronco_p/5405.htm
 
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tad3790

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Jan 8, 2015
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That is the bracket I have. I am on the inboard hole as you thought also. I can use that outer hole, or shorten my drag link by an inch easily with the adjustment collar and move a fews splines on the pitman too if needed. However, it does sound like less hassle to just move/lengthen the track bar, but I originally chose the inner hole because it actually matches more closely to the angle of the drag link. Moving out to the outer hole sort of increases the difference in angle between the two. I will try this tonight and decide then which one to shorten or lengthen.

Out back are new 11 pack leafs. I have the U bolts torqued to 85 ft lbs. I also put the shims in to get pinion angle.
 

DirtDonk

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How is your new steering linkage adjusted from a standpoint of the centerlink?
In other words, where the draglink mounts to the tie-rod, is the grease fitting angled upward at an approximately 65° angle (pointing between the bumper and core support) or facing straight ahead?

If straight ahead, this is at least part of a problem. You need to get that angle up to reduce rotational movements and then you can re-examine your angles again as changing this will naturally raise your lower draglink end.

Is the trackbar drop bracket welded on?

And a final issue that comes with the angles sometimes is that with modern dropped pitman arms, some trackbar brackets just don't lend themselves well to getting the angles parallel. Looks like you have a good one though, so that's probably not going to be an issue.
But check all that out and let us know what happens.

Got any pics you can show us? I see you're a contributor already (thanks!) so fire away with the camera.

Paul
 
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tad3790

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Thanks Paul! (and everyone else).. I will check the angle of the drag link tonight where it attaches as I can't say that I noticed. Track bar is welded. I will also get a few pics.
 

Vcyota92

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Oct 7, 2013
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17
I would also measure out the drag link vs track bar. There is a lot of things that can throw your eyes off and a tape measure should lie. On flat level ground, Measure from the ground to the center of the drag link pivot on the tie rod , then to the axle side track bar, track bar pivot at the frame, and the drag link pivot on the pitman arm. The difference in heights on each end should match if they are parallel. Example being your axle side track bar mount is 3inches taller then the drag link at the tie rod, then the frame side needs to have that same difference compared to the pitman arm.
 
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tad3790

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Well, I made sure my drag link connection was pointing toward the bumper. It was a little more straight. I adjusted that. I also noticed as I had my son turning the wheel back and forth a very small amount of flex on the drop bar bracket. I only welded it on the top (plus bolted it). It seems to be flexing... albiet a tiny amount. I am going to weld that in along the bottom where it should be welded. I was apprehensive to commit to the FULL weld in for fear I did not have it correct, or needed a different one... but it very well may be a culprit. I suppose if just turning the wheel causes a small amount of movement.... going down the road may see more pressure and therefore movement.
Thanks for the tip Vcyota! However, my bars are not perfectly parallel.. they are close... but I see no real way to make them absolutely perfect. I will make those measurements though. Im curious using your method what I will get.
Now, an issue that has not been discussed yet... but I see it has been brought up in other "chaser's of a straight driving Bronco" threads. Tire PSI. My tires are very near the size of a true 35x12x18 tire. (just a tiny bit smaller). I am running 60lbs of air. I am starting to think I need to air WAY down to around 30lbs as i read about others who have had positive results after doing so. Not sure why as I have not seen a clear explanation... but i guess a more flexible sidewall stabilizes??? Seems like a crutch fix... but I'm game if it works! Any thoughts?
 

Apogee

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Definitely try some lower air pressures. What load range are the tires? C, D or E? I would think that your truck would track much better somewhere in the 25-32 PSI range and it sounds like the tires are way over inflated as is. For comparison, I run ~50 PSI in my 35x12.5R20 Load Range E tires on my diesel Superduty, and it weighs probably double what your rig does at ~7200#.
 

DirtDonk

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Well, I made sure my drag link connection was pointing toward the bumper. It was a little more straight. I adjusted that.

Good. You can also play with this adjustment for another reason. Aligning the draglink to be more parallel with the trackbar, which helps answer your questions below.

I also noticed as I had my son turning the wheel back and forth a very small amount of flex on the drop bar bracket. I only welded it on the top (plus bolted it). It seems to be flexing... albiet a tiny amount.

AS you guessed, this is enough to cause some mild wandering all on it's own. Add that to something else being loose or wrong and it's one more thing against you.
But don't weld it just yet. More on that below.

I am going to weld that in along the bottom where it should be welded. I was apprehensive to commit to the FULL weld in for fear I did not have it correct, or needed a different one... but it very well may be a culprit.

Absolutely correct. So once again, make sure you can make things as close to parallel as you can before welding. If you need to change to a different bracket, now's the time to find out vs after you've just done a truly bitchin' once in a lifetime stack-o-dimes super weld.;D

I suppose if just turning the wheel causes a small amount of movement.... going down the road may see more pressure and therefore movement.

Exactly right. The power of the steering system is a real help in determining what moves and what shouldn't in static form. Add the weight shift of a moving vehicle and all that, and you're right to expect some funky monkey motions from a flexing trackbar or bracket.

Thanks for the tip Vcyota! However, my bars are not perfectly parallel.. they are close... but I see no real way to make them absolutely perfect. I will make those measurements though. Im curious using your method what I will get.

It's an excellent method in fact! Don't think I've ever seen anyone post that up in all these years. We usually talk about imaginary straight lines, or using string, or something like that. The one posted is elegantly simple and probably quicker and more accurate anyway. No more standing back to visualize your handywork!

And the way you "adjust" the angles is through things we've been discussing. Making sure that your pitman arm and trackbar bracket are as compatible as they can be, and make sure that you utilize as much of that rotating the tie-rod adjustment as you reasonably can, before you angle it up or down too much. There's a fair amount of leeway here though, so you can often achieve nirvana with what you've got.

And speaking of "what you've got" there buddy. We need to see some pics of your setup so we know that we're giving you the best advice we can. You're a paid contributor now, so click away and post up! Doesn't have to the the full monte centerfold spread. But a good frontal view of your steering setup would be nice.

Now, an issue that has not been discussed yet... but I see it has been brought up in other "chaser's of a straight driving Bronco" threads. Tire PSI. My tires are very near the size of a true 35x12x18 tire. (just a tiny bit smaller).

We're still running on empty info here. What EXACT tire size are you running? Spell it out for us and post up what the sidewall says for "max pressure" and "max load" for your tire.
Wheel size is good to know too, if you know what you have.

I am running 60lbs of air. I am starting to think I need to air WAY down to around 30lbs as i read about others who have had positive results after doing so.

It's a good place to start, but every setup is different on every truck, so it's up to you to do the experimenting long-term to get the best results.
However, since most of us that have posted up results do fall into that 28-32 psi front, and 24-30 psi rear category, it's a good bet that starting there will get you some results you can work with.

Not sure why as I have not seen a clear explanation... but i guess a more flexible sidewall stabilizes??? Seems like a crutch fix... but I'm game if it works! Any thoughts?

There's nothing "crutch" about any of what we're talking about here. A fix is a fix! You're dealing with a vehicle that no longer has any even remotely reasonable relationship to how it was shipped from the factory other than how it looks. And even that might have been changed in many cases.
The weight, the balance/bias, the power, the size of the tires and the dynamic performance of the suspension and likely the brakes have all been changed radically on most of our trucks. So there's no reason to think that tire air pressures should stay the same either.
And since you NEVER blindly go by the "maximum safe pressure" listings on the side of a tire, you need to think things through, throughout all of this back and forth dance of creating a new balance for your individual vehicle.

Tire air pressures are based on wheel width, tire diameter, tire carcass design, tread design and sidewall profile and the usual etceteras of vehicle overall weight, front-to-rear bias, expected use and all that.

It's not a flexier sidewall stabilizes things, it's that an overinflated tire is literally riding on the center of the tire. Just as an underinflated tire is riding on the two edges.
The manufacturers of the vehicle base their recommended tire pressures on the particulars of an individual vehicle, shipped from the factory with a specific tire and wheel combination, for general safety and good tread wear. The listing on the side of a tire is it's maximum safe inflation level and the maximum load each tire should carry at that maximum pressure. Nothing more.
The heavier duty a tire, typically the more max pressure is allowed and the more weight it can carry at that inflation. If the max on the sidewall of your probably metric truck tire is say, 65 psi with a max load of 2550 or something, that means that at 65 psi your tires can safely carry 10,200 lbs. More than double the weight of your Bronco!

On the flip side of that, if Ford recommended 30 psi front and rear, that was with the original tires. And since there were optional tire and wheel combos, it's very likely there were different pressure ratings for the different tires too. When mounted on a Bronco anyway. Same tire on a different truck might have had a different recommended pressure. All very likely to be somewhat below the max range on the sidewall.
But the original recommendations went out the window with all the changes. They simply become a reference point that is fairly close to what you might end up with.

There is a minimum safe pressure for every combo too of course, but that's usually not listed anywhere. They figure we can all read the listings (when there are listings that is) and they hope we can read the telltale signs of an underinflated (or overinflated) tire.
Poor handling being the primary indicator, with poor tire wear being the secondary indicator.

Paul
 
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tad3790

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Thanks Paul! Yea, I meant to get pics.... I will do that tonight or tomorrow. I listed my tires in an earlier thread... but here it is again. They are 325 65R18 BFG tires. Load range E. I will study the bracket some more before i weld to make sure there is not something else I can do to get more parallel. Also, will take those measurements from the floor suggested above to determine angle difference.

Also, my crutch comment was a result of my tires having a max psi rating listed on the side wall of 65psi. I just thought running less than half that seemed odd, but apparently not. Sounds like lots of folks do it. I am an old drag racer so playing with tire psi is an old favorite. :)


Good stuff! Thanks Guys.
 

DirtDonk

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...Also, my crutch comment was a result of my tires having a max psi rating listed on the side wall of 65psi. I just thought running less than half that seemed odd, but apparently not.

Not anymore anyway. Back when most of us were running tires that had a max psi of 32 to 35 psi, load range B and C, with poundages in the 1100's to 1500's, it wasn't so blatant.
But now when most tires that we like are actually real honest-to-blazes truck tires, that's all out the window. A load range E used to be something that we only had on our heavy duty work trucks. Now it's mainstream.
Sure gives airing down a whole new meaning though, as you can't hardly tell when you've got a flat tire anymore. It just won't go flat.

Anyway, you're right to at least question running half the rating, but when in doubt look at the weight capacity too. If it's way high, and you're not running a wheel that's wider than the tire, then half isn't in the danger zone on a relatively lightweight EB.
Stockish was about 3900 to 4000 lbs or so if I remember. GVWR's in the 4500 to 4900 range, compared to tires that will work on trucks with 10k, or even 12k GVWR's.

Can't hurt to at least try. You'll know if it's too low for your rig. Sounds like with your experience with messing about with tires you'll feel it before any trouble starts.

Good luck.

Paul
 
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tad3790

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migs

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I would also measure out the drag link vs track bar. There is a lot of things that can throw your eyes off and a tape measure should lie. On flat level ground, Measure from the ground to the center of the drag link pivot on the tie rod , then to the axle side track bar, track bar pivot at the frame, and the drag link pivot on the pitman arm. The difference in heights on each end should match if they are parallel. Example being your axle side track bar mount is 3inches taller then the drag link at the tie rod, then the frame side needs to have that same difference compared to the pitman arm.

Just a word of caution to anyone trying this method... it should work fine as long as the track bar and drag link are the same length, but if one is longer than the other and depending where the pivot points are located relative to one another, then the vertical measurements could be different even though the bars are parallel.
My track bar is shorter than the drag link used with my GM 1 ton steering conversion. I have F150 knuckles, went tie rod over and using my track bar riser. I set it all up so the bars are parallel at ride height for best results, and in my case this is an instance where the vertical distance between pivot points does not match.

Here's a picture from when I was setting up my steering and a crude drawing trying to show what I'm talking about as well.;D
 

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DirtDonk

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hmmm, trying to figure out how to post my pics.

Are you first clicking on the "go advanced" tab below the answer box?
In the "quick reply" mode you can't upload. In the advanced mode there is a small button below to click "upload photos" and from there you can browse.
Once you have uploaded one or more (usually between 200k and 700k images work best without being too big) you then go up to the paperclip above your text box. Wherever the cursor is, that's where a photo image will show up, if you use the paperclip method.

Good luck.
I'll respond to your pics next...

Paul
 
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