Duffs drop track bar bracket install advice

[4x4man514]

Dang that's a lot of mods. Major surgery. I didn't have to go through all this with my first bronco. It drove fine even with the spring rockers and extended arms .Sounds like a thousand dollars for each move that may or may not be the answer.

 

[Torkman66]

What he @DirtDonk said.

 

[Torkman66]

Dang that's a lot of mods. Major surgery. I didn't have to go through all this with my first bronco. It drove fine even with the spring rockers and extended arms .Sounds like a thousand dollars for each move that may or may not be the answer.

Agree. Crazy talk for sure. I have heard most folks say 4* caster worked perfect for them. Nope, not for me. 4* and she was whipping all over the road. I would not let my wife (or anybody ) drive it. Since others all said 4* caster was enough, I started chasing the parts bunny. Its just another $500 for this or $300 for that and if it solves the problem on my 60k rebuild project then why not. So after pretty much adding all the gadgets and nothing changed, I went with the T-Rex arms that allow you to adjust caster. That solved it but required 8* caster.

However, my truck does drive nicer because of the sway bar and correct geometry. All those things added to its overall performance (say 25%) but the caster change was 75%. But hey, now she drives super nice, one finger down the road. And all those new shiny parts. Cant really complain although as i said, there is only one right way to do this and that is to cut off the Cs on the end of the axle and rotate them for the right caster then weld them back on. That solves both caster and pinon angle. But, that is a big job to do and requires the housing bare, not powder coated yet, and on your work bench. I learned of the cut and turn well after it was all put together.

 

[Torkman66]

To summarize:
1. You can't really adjust caster on these trucks other than the C-bushings (I call them wedges) or with eccentrics that change the angle of the Ball Joints by up to 1.5*.
2. Going to an alignment shop will provide you NOTHING but the numbers of what you have...they WILL NOT be able to fix anything other than toe in.
3. In my experience and reading hundreds of articles and getting smart from @jamesroney and @DirtDonk , I have learned that "cut and turn" is the ONLY true solution, everything else is a bolt on "fix" rather than the actual correct solution. If those "fixes" work, great.
4. If you are not going to cut and turn (that is a bridge to far likely given where you are in the build process) then the T-Rex arms solve the caster issue but will create a pinon angle that needs to be considered. If she is a street driver, no issue at all....just do it. Occasional 4x4 which is slow and not aggressive, no problem, pinon angle will be fine. But if you plan on serious 4x4 then pinon angle is important (angle between axle yoke and drive shaft). For my build, she is a show queen so never any reason for 4x4 other than to show whoever may buy it that the 4x4 works.

 

[4x4man514]

Agree. Crazy talk for sure. I have heard most folks say 4* caster worked perfect for them. Nope, not for me. 4* and she was whipping all over the road. I would not let my wife (or anybody ) drive it. Since others all said 4* caster was enough, I started chasing the parts bunny. Its just another $500 for this or $300 for that and if it solves the problem on my 60k rebuild project then why not. So after pretty much adding all the gadgets and nothing changed, I went with the T-Rex arms that allow you to adjust caster. That solved it but required 8* caster.

However, my truck does drive nicer because of the sway bar and correct geometry. All those things added to its overall performance (say 25%) but the caster change was 75%. But hey, now she drives super nice, one finger down the road. And all those new shiny parts. Cant really complain although as i said, there is only one right way to do this and that is to cut off the Cs on the end of the axle and rotate them for the right caster then weld them back on. That solves both caster and pinon angle. But, that is a big job to do and requires the housing bare, not powder coated yet, and on your work bench. I learned of the cut and turn well after it was all put together.

Thanks for all the good info. I get it. I don't want to but I get it. I've been working on this bronco for almost 20 yrs. I'm 53 and I've long since lost the thrill and satisfaction of building it. I'm ready to get some enjoyment out of it and it seems like one thing after another right here at the end of things. And I have so little time to devote to it anymore. I just want to be done and move on. But you know. Sounds like you've been there.

I'm gonna look at cutting it but I don't know if I've got the skill to tackle all that and trust it. And I for damn sure don't know anybody around here that does. Sounds a lot like adding another year to my build.

How do you even know how much to rotate it once you cut it up? And what happens when it's wrong? Just keep disassembling it and cutting it over and over again?

I guess it's just frustrating . I could see if this was a 13 inch lift and 44s but 4.5 and 37s? Heck I got a 86 f150 that was solid axle swapped with 13 inches and 44s before there was a kit and it wasn't this much trouble to get right.

 

[4x4man514]

To summarize:
1. You can't really adjust caster on these trucks other than the C-bushings (I call them wedges) or with eccentrics that change the angle of the Ball Joints by up to 1.5*.
2. Going to an alignment shop will provide you NOTHING but the numbers of what you have...they WILL NOT be able to fix anything other than toe in.
3. In my experience and reading hundreds of articles and getting smart from @jamesroney and @DirtDonk , I have learned that "cut and turn" is the ONLY true solution, everything else is a bolt on "fix" rather than the actual correct solution. If those "fixes" work, great.
4. If you are not going to cut and turn (that is a bridge to far likely given where you are in the build process) then the T-Rex arms solve the caster issue but will create a pinon angle that needs to be considered. If she is a street driver, no issue at all....just do it. Occasional 4x4 which is slow and not aggressive, no problem, pinon angle will be fine. But if you plan on serious 4x4 then pinon angle is important (angle between axle yoke and drive shaft). For my build, she is a show queen so never any reason for 4x4 other than to show whoever may buy it that the 4x4 works.

Well that sounds more doable. Mine is def a pavement princess. I won't even take her out in a rain. 4x4 will be as wasted as the lockers that are in her

 

[DirtDonk]

I have heard most folks say 4* caster worked perfect for them. Nope, not for me. 4* and she was whipping all over the road.

Yep, and I'm one of those that brings up driving with low caster numbers now and then.
My '71 was my daily-driver for over 20 years, as stock height, and 1" to 1.5" to 1.75" to 3.5" lifts. Measured caster and camber at 3.5" of lift and 7 degree bushings.
My camber was nominal (about 1.25 to about 1.5 degrees or so if I remember), my toe-in was variable because I would tweak it to find the best road feel.
My caster is literally something like 1.9 degrees on one side and 2.2 on the other and it always drove exceptionally well! Very stable, very "pointable" with good road following manners.
Yeah, go figure...

One area that would certainly contribute to NOT making it much different than stock, would be my wheel and tire size and offset.
Originally was running 15x7 chrome steelies with 31x10.50 old-school bias ply mud tires. Next iteration was 15x8 white spoke wheels with 32x11.50 Armstrong TruTracs. Final wheel size was 15x7 aluminum wheels with 3.5" backspacing. Tires have been various 32x11.50's (back when those were common) mostly all-terrains, with the final (and by far the worst!) tires were/are Super Swamper Thornbirds in 33x11.50x15.
Worst tire I've ever owned on any vehicle, but it still steered reasonably well! And almost lost control on wet pavement a couple of times!

By the time I got to 3.5" of lift I had a dropped pitman arm and dropped trackbar bracket. Stock steering linkage until I swapped in F150 disc brakes and then changed the tie-rod and draglink to custom shortened F150 links.
Oh, manual steering and brakes too.
Still had a good feel on the road. So yeah, I'm that annoying repeating "but hey, mine works" guy here on the forum.
I'll have to find my alignment printout to make sure I'm not exaggerating the numbers any. But I remember even at the time (early '80's I think) being disappointed in the low caster numbers. But then forgot about them because it drove so well.

By the way, small changes in toe-in make a big difference in feel. So I always tweak mine when installing new tires. Just in case they want to see more or less than my typical 3/16" toe-in.
It's so sensitive I can feel the difference of a 1/16th inch of toe, and even can note the excess wandering when my trackbar wasn't cooperating.
The first time was when the lower mount/bolt/stud/thingy broke it's spot weld. The nut was tight, but the bolt flexed in the mount.
The second time was right after installing the dropped trackbar bracket (WH part not long after Jim started up the business!), but before welding it. I wanted to give it a try just bolting it on, but immediately noticed excess wandering both on city streets and local freeways.

Could the different experiences in different rigs be tire size and type? Wheel width and offset? Steering type? Lift amount? Condition of your particular local roads? Different driver expectations?
Unknown, but I'm betting there is at least a slight correlation. Kind of an "all of the above" scenario?
I'm sure that at least my friend James Roney remains skeptical of my numbers and results. But I put over 100k miles on and off road with it, and have no complaints related to unexpected funkiness based on the type of vehicle it is.

I'm not immune to this effect however, nor do I discount the experiences of others such as Torkman's. My '68 with 2.5" of lift and 31x10.50 tires does not feel near as planted on the road as my '71. Very similar wheels, but BFG Mud Terrain tires, power steering and no steering linkage correction. Fantastic caster and camber numbers (right around 6 caster and under 1 camber if I remember the printout), so it has the much more desirable settings.
But not quite as much fun to drive. Very different driving vehicles.
Well, it's actually MORE fun to drive, with the Explorer engine, 4R70w trans, and 4.56 gears with those 31 BFG's!!!!
Pretty much as direct a comparison as you can get with something like this. Same driver, same type of vehicle, same roads and expectations and senses, but with different setup and settings.
Wouldn't trade either of them yet. But still looking to add steering corrective measures to the '68. Dropped pitman and trackbar, even with just the 2.5" lift.

Sorry for the ramble. But you opened it up Torkman! Haha! Just wanted to acknowledge in this thread, that as you mentioned, there are some out here that are perfectly fine with low caster numbers. Even as we try to achieve better numbers.
And to highlight that yours and 4x4man's and my Broncos are pretty far apart in setup if I'm not mistaken.

Paul

 

[4x4man514]

Yep, and I'm one of those that brings up driving with low caster numbers now and then.
My '71 was my daily-driver for over 20 years, as stock height, and 1" to 1.5" to 1.75" to 3.5" lifts. Measured caster and camber at 3.5" of lift and 7 degree bushings.
My camber was nominal (about 1.25 to about 1.5 degrees or so if I remember), my toe-in was variable because I would tweak it to find the best road feel.
My caster is literally something like 1.9 degrees on one side and 2.2 on the other and it always drove exceptionally well! Very stable, very "pointable" with good road following manners.
Yeah, go figure...

One area that would certainly contribute to NOT making it much different than stock, would be my wheel and tire size and offset.
Originally was running 15x7 chrome steelies with 31x10.50 old-school bias ply mud tires. Next iteration was 15x8 white spoke wheels with 32x11.50 Armstrong TruTracs. Final wheel size was 15x7 aluminum wheels with 3.5" backspacing. Tires have been various 32x11.50's (back when those were common) mostly all-terrains, with the final (and by far the worst!) tires were/are Super Swamper Thornbirds in 33x11.50x15.
Worst tire I've ever owned on any vehicle, but it still steered reasonably well! And almost lost control on wet pavement a couple of times!

By the time I got to 3.5" of lift I had a dropped pitman arm and dropped trackbar bracket. Stock steering linkage until I swapped in F150 disc brakes and then changed the tie-rod and draglink to custom shortened F150 links.
Oh, manual steering and brakes too.
Still had a good feel on the road. So yeah, I'm that annoying repeating "but hey, mine works" guy here on the forum.
I'll have to find my alignment printout to make sure I'm not exaggerating the numbers any. But I remember even at the time (early '80's I think) being disappointed in the low caster numbers. But then forgot about them because it drove so well.

By the way, small changes in toe-in make a big difference in feel. So I always tweak mine when installing new tires. Just in case they want to see more or less than my typical 3/16" toe-in.
It's so sensitive I can feel the difference of a 1/16th inch of toe, and even can note the excess wandering when my trackbar wasn't cooperating.
The first time was when the lower mount/bolt/stud/thingy broke it's spot weld. The nut was tight, but the bolt flexed in the mount.
The second time was right after installing the dropped trackbar bracket (WH part not long after Jim started up the business!), but before welding it. I wanted to give it a try just bolting it on, but immediately noticed excess wandering both on city streets and local freeways.

Could the different experiences in different rigs be tire size and type? Wheel width and offset? Steering type? Lift amount? Condition of your particular local roads? Different driver expectations?
Unknown, but I'm betting there is at least a slight correlation. Kind of an "all of the above" scenario?
I'm sure that at least my friend James Roney remains skeptical of my numbers and results. But I put over 100k miles on and off road with it, and have no complaints related to unexpected funkiness based on the type of vehicle it is.

I'm not immune to this effect however, nor do I discount the experiences of others such as Torkman's. My '68 with 2.5" of lift and 31x10.50 tires does not feel near as planted on the road as my '71. Very similar wheels, but BFG Mud Terrain tires, power steering and no steering linkage correction. Fantastic caster and camber numbers (right around 6 caster and under 1 camber if I remember the printout), so it has the much more desirable settings.
But not quite as much fun to drive. Very different driving vehicles.
Well, it's actually MORE fun to drive, with the Explorer engine, 4R70w trans, and 4.56 gears with those 31 BFG's!!!!
Pretty much as direct a comparison as you can get with something like this. Same driver, same type of vehicle, same roads and expectations and senses, but with different setup and settings.
Wouldn't trade either of them yet. But still looking to add steering corrective measures to the '68. Dropped pitman and trackbar, even with just the 2.5" lift.

Sorry for the ramble. But you opened it up Torkman! Haha! Just wanted to acknowledge in this thread, that as you mentioned, there are some out here that are perfectly fine with low caster numbers. Even as we try to achieve better numbers.
And to highlight that yours and 4x4man's and my Broncos are pretty far apart in setup if I'm not mistaken.

Paul

Yea I guess things can be off like that. My old bronco was about the same suspension and tire wise but I did have a wore out 302 and my bronco now has a built 393. So there's that and the fact that I'm 20 yrs older andaybe not the cowboy I once was. Plus after not driving an eb for that long maybe I've just forgotten they take a little more input than other vehicles.

 

[PDQ]

To summarize:
1. You can't really adjust caster on these trucks other than the C-bushings (I call them wedges) or with eccentrics that change the angle of the Ball Joints by up to 1.5*.
2. Going to an alignment shop will provide you NOTHING but the numbers of what you have...they WILL NOT be able to fix anything other than toe in.
3. In my experience and reading hundreds of articles and getting smart from @jamesroney and @DirtDonk , I have learned that "cut and turn" is the ONLY true solution, everything else is a bolt on "fix" rather than the actual correct solution. If those "fixes" work, great.
4. If you are not going to cut and turn (that is a bridge to far likely given where you are in the build process) then the T-Rex arms solve the caster issue but will create a pinon angle that needs to be considered. If she is a street driver, no issue at all....just do it. Occasional 4x4 which is slow and not aggressive, no problem, pinon angle will be fine. But if you plan on serious 4x4 then pinon angle is important (angle between axle yoke and drive shaft). For my build, she is a show queen so never any reason for 4x4 other than to show whoever may buy it that the 4x4 works.

Following and great stuff. Dumb question, but would it stand to reason then that the Duff's Caster Adjustable Stock Length Radius arms work to accomplish this as well? I was looking at rear radius arm drop bracket kits for my 3.5" lift to hopefully help with the caster issues you have been describing but then came across these. Substantial price difference from a drop bracket to these of course, but no welding either. Thanks for all the great info.

https://dufftuff.com/catalog/t-rex-...radius-arms-configuration/#choose-application

 

[DirtDonk]

Drop brackets, offset (or adjustable, stock length or longer) radius arms, C-bushings. All accomplish the same thing (caster correction) the same way. By tilting the axle assembly to gain more positive caster.
So they all have the advantage of adding positive caster, while likely maxing out the u-joint/yoke angles and potentially creating a binding of the u-joint.

Drop brackets are simple, add 4 degrees (typical) caster, not too expensive, and require a little more work than the C-bushings. But also cause a loss of ground clearance and potentially add some flex/stress to the frame.

Radius arms are the most expensive, have a slightly larger caster gain (in the case of the Duff arms), and have the big benefit of their "kink" to accommodate larger tires. Helping to retain the best turning radius.

C-bushings are the least expensive, arguably the easiest to install, and give the most correction at 7 degrees max.

As previously mentioned, the ONLY way to correct caster and still keep a reasonable pinion/u-joint angle is to cut-n-turn the steering yokes on the ends of the axles.

 

[Torkman66]

@PDQ those are what I installed on my truck. They are a bit pricey but they provide a bunch of caster adjustment. Key word is “ adjustment.” These are the only thing I’m aware of that you can dial in the caster from about 4 to 8 or anything in between. Once installed, to adjust caster you simply loosen a couple bolts, turn an eccentric bolt to change caster, then torque bolts back down. They are built very well with heavy steel. As @DirtDonk said, they also have a bend in them so your larger tires can move full turning radius without hitting them. Takes an afternoon to install, but they are a plug and play, no welding, no drilling. I did it alone but would be a better two man job. There is a great detailed install video on line that Mike did. I’m glad I used them. They solved my problem and made truck handle much better.