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Electric fan - aluminum shroud from WH

KeithKinPhx

Sr. Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2017
Messages
447
Just watch an episode of Engine Masters where they covered the cost in horsepower for engine fans. Holy &$@& Batman the fixed blade fans are major power killers.

So naturally I think of my poor 289 and wonder what kind of boost I will get with an electric. Plus I am installing the BC Vintage air and the fan blade clearance is an issue. I have a 3G 130w alternator.

Anyone using the WH set up? Does it cool well? I live in Phoenix......

WH fan:
https://www.wildhorses4x4.com/product/Aluminum_Shrouded_Hi-Output_Radiator_Fan/Bronco_Cooling_Fans

YouTube of Engine Masters:
https://youtu.be/ZXdLgaFXZzs
 

bronconut73

Bronco Guru
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Aug 7, 2012
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9,918
Only certain electric fans can actually keep up with eb engine compartment heat.
 

DirtDonk

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Are you having any cooling issues at present Keith? If so, and unless it's strictly at idle or very slow speeds, an electric fan is not usually the cure for the problem.
But if your engine runs well and stays relatively cool, even in the AZ heat, it should work for you.

The problem though is that AZ heat. You're about in as hard a test area as they get for Broncos and cooling. So if anything is borderline now, an electric fan, even our fairly powerful one, may not be your best bet.
That said, there are many of them out there even in your area that are working very well.
I'd run one on my engines, but I've never had a heating problem. I just like electrics for being good on the trail and being able to turn them off for water crossings and such. Even though that's a few-and-far-between experience for most of us, it only takes one time to make you a believer!

My current driver has the full Explorer fan setup though, and even at the expense of a few horsepower, I'm too happy with that to change it out.

Paul
 
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KeithKinPhx

Sr. Member
Joined
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Messages
447
Paul,

Thankfully historically speaking over heating or even running hot has not been a problem. Don't do a lot of trail riding when it's over 100. I think it will complement the engine too.
Unfortunately it not just a few horsepower. The fixed blade they had looked a lot like mine and it was more like 20 horsepower.
 

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yfz450sew

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252
I have this fan without the shroud and it works well for me, i also have a big oil cooler though.
 

73azbronco

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That fan test by engine masters, I like their videos, but this one falls short of anything useful. It's like saying your rear axle uses up 50HP, so don't use a rear axle.

If you also don't test airflow and cooling capability, how much a fan reduces HP is irrelevant imo.

They did NOT do a test of electrical fans and how many amps were needed from the alternator and how many HP that used. I bet an electric uses more HP than a mechanical fan.
 

AZ73

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That fan test by engine masters, I like their videos, but this one falls short of anything useful. It's like saying your rear axle uses up 50HP, so don't use a rear axle.

If you also don't test airflow and cooling capability, how much a fan reduces HP is irrelevant imo.

They did NOT do a test of electrical fans and how many amps were needed from the alternator and how many HP that used. I bet an electric uses more HP than a mechanical fan.

Yeah, it wasn't the best test. There was no measurement of the reduced power to overcome the radiator drag without a fan, nor the positive offset the forward motion (and pressure) on the air in front of the radiator would have on the fan. So, yeah, standing still the fan pulls some power. Once you start moving, that fan power need is reduced. The Clutch fan is the best of the mechanical fans because it reduces parasitic fan drag at speed when you don't need a fan. That's somewhat offset by crawling which uses higher RPM but low MPH where a non-clutch fan is better. A fan is really only supposed to work at stop to slow MPH. Why do you care about HP/TQ loss when you're stopped?

Think about this. Hold a pinwheel in front of your mouth without blowing. Now spin it with your hands. It took power from your hand to spin it. Now just blow on it. It spins with zero power from your hand. The air pressure in front of it spins it. How much air pressure is in front of your engine's fan when you're driving? It's not going to spin with ZERO power loss because the radiator itself is blocking some of the pressure, but it's going to be much less power to turn it once you're moving.
 

DirtDonk

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They did mention a previous test with electric fans and their own conclusions based on power loss for a charging alternator being in the neighborhood of just a couple of horsepower even with a fan drawing 50 amps running.
Their one point was incorrect I think, in that they said "most engines are going to have an alternator anyway" not taking into account how much it has to charge normally. Most engines have fans, rear ends and mufflers too, but it did sound like they tested with and without the fan running and found it to only suck a couple of HP in the test.
Would like to see those tests on one of their episodes though. Be good to see what and how they tested.
Like the Mythbusters, sometimes their methodology is lacking.

I agree that they lose some important details in their testing methods sometimes. And I would also like to know about flow. But cooling capacity is more than just the fan alone anyway, so might not be something anyone can test without being installed in the different vehicles.
Knowing which one takes the least power to turn is just a good starting point for us out in the real world.

So I disagree that measuring power loss is not still valuable info.
If you have a high power engine and big tires, then the most efficient rear end may not be the strongest. If that same big power engine runs hot on the most efficient fan, you probably can't use it either. But most of us fall somewhere in the middle or bottom of that pile, so we might just be able to get away with something that is more efficient in power, and still sufficient for our needs.
Plenty of horror stories already out there from using flex-fans, aluminum or plastic fans, electric fans, clutch fans, all of the above fans, to know that they're not right for everyone. But as we know from our discussions too, many heating problems are caused by engine tune and just overpower most cooling systems ability to dissipate the heat no matter what fan is used.

If you use all of the above fans on a given vehicle, and they all cool the engine sufficiently for your needs, given all the other variables, then why not use the one that uses the least power to turn?
Yes, that might end up costing you money in experimentation, but we have to start somewhere and we know that plenty of us look for more power in spite of what snowballing that can cause.

I personally would love to see a chassis dyno shootout on the different rear ends out there. I suggested it a few years ago from the Power Block when they got their dynos installed. Never heard anything about it, but i think it would be cool to set up some diffs with the same (or as close as possible) gear ratios and see how much power is lost for each one on the same vehicle with the same tires.

You're right about the fan shootout if a low loss version doesn't cool well. But only testing that on our own rigs out in the real world will bear that out. Dynos give us a good starting point though.
Most of us don't have dynos, but we do have temperature gauges, so they do the other work for us and we do the rest.

Mentioning flow though, it'd be great to see someone (not them probably) do an actual air-flow test through a specific radiator with different electric fans and the amount of current they use.
Just like the old candlepower ratings with no industry standard measuring method, I've heard that different manufacturers use different criteria to rate their fans, so having them all done at the same pressure level (or whatever the specifics are) would be a good thing.
See how many amps a fan really draws when pulling the same air as another one.

Paul
 
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KeithKinPhx

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My main concern being in Phoenix is heat transfer, performance is second.

From a overheating perspective, if I am going to overheat it is when I am sitting in traffic or riding on a trail. Airflow at 45 mph plus should almost be enough on its own to cool the engine let alone using a fan. So as mentioned a clutch fan would make more sense than the others.

From a Bronco perspective the test was not ideal given the radiator they used was realatively huge compared to ours. They were more concerned about the shroud than the radiator itself. Unfortunately unless we convince them to rerun with a Bronco radiator setup and simulate forward wind speed we will never know.

For me acceleration is the main objective from a performance perspective. Once I hit OD horsepower means little to me. The occasional high RPM while climbing a hill will also be at low speed. The thing I would like answered is when the engine is at high RPMs while accelerating does the fan reduce that pushed back into the seat feeling?

This all may be moot. One of the builders told me for an engine with AC and automatic you need to push around 4000 cfm to keep her cool, not the 2400 the electric fan is rated at. I asked how he knew and the reply was "personal experience". He advised to sacrifice HP to the fan for the health of the engine and if I wanted more HP to consider better headers and exhaust or even a new cam. I really can't argue with his logic.

So rather tan buying a fancy fan maybe some headers are a better investment.
 

Tiko433

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Healthy fan discussion guys, Do you have any input on a steal blade fan Vs a plastic blade fan Specifically the Explorer clutch fan they offered both . I wonder if a plastic one would be more efficient It being lighter it would take less effort for to turn
 

DirtDonk

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From a overheating perspective, if I am going to overheat it is when I am sitting in traffic or riding on a trail.

Which is of course where an electric fan excels. And another reason I still like them myself.

Airflow at 45 mph plus should almost be enough on its own to cool the engine let alone using a fan. So as mentioned a clutch fan would make more sense than the others.

Sort of... In theory yes, but in Broncos that are modified, natural air flow through the radiator is sketchy more often than not. After lifts and big tires and maybe even a winch bumper and winch, the high pressure buildup underneath the vehicle at highway speeds is enough to keep air trying to flow through the grill at least partially at bay.
Generically speaking however, you're exactly right. It's just that Broncos weren't designed with very good aerodynamics even when new. Add more height and clearance underneath to build up pressure, and it gets even worse.
How much of that impeding of flow is due to aero, and how much to a rigid fan spinning behind the radiator, I don't think anyone has tested that I remember.

Maybe that would be a good test sometime. Anyone that has a normal cool running Bronco that sees the temperature rise and highway speeds, could disconnect the fan temporarily to see if the temperatures still rise up.
Mine did that at speeds above 70. Stood right at the temperature of the thermostat for 98% of the driving, but would run up another 10 to 20 degrees on long freeway slogs in the summer.
Never thought of pulling the fan for just the heck of it. I was having too much fun to take the time anyway probably. Ahh, the good old days...;D

For me acceleration is the main objective from a performance perspective. Once I hit OD horsepower means little to me. The occasional high RPM while climbing a hill will also be at low speed. The thing I would like answered is when the engine is at high RPMs while accelerating does the fan reduce that pushed back into the seat feeling?

It's probably measurable, but it's likely at such a level as to be hard to feel by the seat of your pants. At least that's my feeling on it.
But we still strive to get rid of as much waste as possible because eventually it all adds up to something you can feel.
A fan alone? Maybe not. But a more efficient fan when put in with other mods, sure. Maybe...

One of the builders told me for an engine with AC and automatic you need to push around 4000 cfm to keep her cool, not the 2400 the electric fan is rated at. I asked how he knew and the reply was "personal experience". He advised to sacrifice HP to the fan for the health of the engine and if I wanted more HP to consider better headers and exhaust or even a new cam. I really can't argue with his logic.

Can't really argue with him either. I wonder at what fan rpm a factory type fan reaches that peak flow? And what is it doing below that?
Just confirmation that a flow test while they were doing the dyno runs would have been a great addition. Might not have been equatable to power loss, but it would have still been good general data.

You'd see that need for higher air flow on some long uphill grade at highway speeds pretty quickly I would think. If you never expect to see that situation however, then it's probably not as critical to have a 4000 cfm mechanical fan. If too much heat was only a problem at trail and traffic speeds, then an electric is still going to pull a hefty amount of air over the radiator.
Remember there are plenty of modern 300 to 450 horsepower vehicles running around with only electric fans. I bet they have much better aerodynamics as a general rule too though.

But there's probably still the argument that there must be a reason full size trucks and some other heavy duty vehicles come with mechanical fans.
Easier and cheaper could certainly be the reasons all by themselves, since the engines are usually facing forward. But there could be others as well.
Anyone know what type of fan a new Corvette or Challenger uses?

Paul
 

DirtDonk

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...Do you have any input on a steal blade fan Vs a plastic blade fan. Specifically the Explorer clutch fan they offered both. I wonder if a plastic one would be more efficient. It being lighter it would take less effort for to turn

I think that's a good question. I know there have been discussions, but don't remember if anyone had different specifications on one vs the other.
However, you're correct in saying that lighter-is-better is probably at work here.
But is the plastic one actually lighter? I would guess yes, but it's still a pretty stout fan.
I have both, so should weigh them if I can find them both at the same time!

I believe they also use a different clutch for each. I wonder if there is an additional weight difference there as well?

Good question.

Paul
 
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KeithKinPhx

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Jan 8, 2017
Messages
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If money were no object or if you own both set ups (electric and mechanical) you could do a simple test. Pull thermostat. Wait until heat of a summer afternoon. Run engine at idle in park for 15 minutes. Record temp. Swap shrouds and fans. Run for 15 minutes. Record temp. Compare.

Theoretically you could do the same thing and drive 15 miles at highway speed.

Moot for me. I only own the rigid blade......
 
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
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Loc.
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KeithKinPhx, ive had a similar post/question, but with my clearance, im needing to go with a nylon, or derale mech fan, both are being shipped this week, and can update with the cooling differences soon. On another note, ive been gifted two electrical fans that i cant come close to using in my setup. Ill offer a lower than market price + shipping if interested. i cannot attest to how it will perform, but its unused in an open box, and id like it to go to an EB owner if it would work . . . pic below



http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah165/matthew_martinez10/20180720_193055_zpsq6puu4vp.jpg
 

sykanr0ng

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Aug 11, 2014
Messages
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Healthy fan discussion guys, Do you have any input on a steal blade fan Vs a plastic blade fan Specifically the Explorer clutch fan they offered both . I wonder if a plastic one would be more efficient It being lighter it would take less effort for to turn

I think that's a good question. I know there have been discussions, but don't remember if anyone had different specifications on one vs the other.
However, you're correct in saying that lighter-is-better is probably at work here.
But is the plastic one actually lighter? I would guess yes, but it's still a pretty stout fan.
I have both, so should weigh them if I can find them both at the same time!

I believe they also use a different clutch for each. I wonder if there is an additional weight difference there as well?

Good question.

Paul

The steel fan and plastic fan do not have the same mounting and there is at least one clutch that fits the steel fan with a higher lockup percentage.

http://classicbroncos.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2885347&postcount=15

http://classicbroncos.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2995979&postcount=22
 
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