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Electrical / voltage problem

FrankSG

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Sep 16, 2013
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153
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Pittsburgh, PA
I’ve been experiencing a problem with maintaining a running voltage of 14.5. When I test at home I’m reading 14.5 and I let it run until the engine warms up and then I retest with everything turned on and I’m getting 14.5 +/- .25. Then I’ll take it out on the road for a test and it’ll stall at random. It then becomes very difficult to turn over and restart, if at all. The voltage drops off to 13.0 v. I actually took a meter with me to verify what my dash meter is reading. After limping home I checked the voltage again and it’s still reading 13.0 v. The battery is brand new. The alternator is new, and even put another one in to check it. I checked all wires and connectors. I replaced some connectors that were questionable. I’ve checked codes and all relate to low-voltage... which makes sense to me, considering the problem. Could the starter, starter solenoid/ switch or anything else cause issue.

I’ve been chasing this demon for a very long time, but cannot understand or locate what the problem is. I’m open to any ideas.

Thanks in advance.
 

DirtDonk

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Better tell us what you're working with. Obviously it's an EFI or you would not have mentioned "codes" in that question!;)
But which alternator? Original style, or a 2G, or a 3G? Or maybe a 4G with an Explorer serpentine setup?

Paul
 

DirtDonk

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Then show us a picture of your setup, including a detailed shot of your starter relay.

To answer the other question though, the starter relay can't cause this itself. That's because the charge cable, whether the original Black wire or an updated charge cable from a bigger alternator is in direct contact with the battery cable.
So short of either of the cables being rusty, dirty, painted or having failed internally, there really isn't anything the relay/solenoid can do to break that contact.

Paul
 

DirtDonk

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And another things...
If you have not updated your alternator to a modern internally regulated model you might consider it while tracking down this issue. It's just a better match to your EFI stuff.

Oh, and another thing! Though this would not "normally" cause a no-charge situation, if you have not added additional grounds to your original harness setup, now's the time.
Your main ground cable should be to the engine block directly (not to the alternator bolt or bracket) and an additional wire of at least 10ga should be attached to the body. Then a third one should be connected between the engine and firewall.

It's the bare minimum for a healthy system.

Paul
 
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FrankSG

FrankSG

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Yes I forgot the specifics...

The engine is a 1993 5.0 with EFI as you mentioned. It’s a 2G 100amp alternator. The battery is 800 CCA. Serpentine. The only Wire coming off of the ignition solenoid this song is on the left side black cable to starter.

The hardest part of this is that it’s so Random.

The more I think about this being a grounding problem, as you mentioned above, would probably be the problem? Being so random and with the engine hot and vibrating is probably causing something to touch or create a loose ground.
 

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Steve83

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Put ALL its details into your signature so we can review them with each reply. Each time you change something, update your sig.

The more pics you post of the Bronco, the engine, & the wiring, the more likely we can help you spot potential problems. That pic is so close-up that I cant tell where it is or what I'm seeing, but that stack of 3 ring terminals looks like it's screwed to a plastic surface. But even if it's a steel surface welded to the body, it was painted before the rings were screwed down, so it's not a good ground.
 

DirtDonk

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It’s a 2G 100amp alternator.

All the more reason to get this fixed like RIGHT NOW(!) before you suffer the fate of many thousands of other 2g owners and suffer a melt-down that might not end well for the other wiring.

The only Wire coming off of the ignition solenoid this song is on the left side black cable to starter.

Can just barely see the starter solenoid/relay, but the starter wire is usually the only one on that side. It's the battery side we're more concerned with, which is where your charge wire(s) from the alternator are supposed to be connected.

Your 2G has two Black wires coming out of the center of the large rectangular connector. Do they both combine to one single wire, or do both of them run to the battery side of the relay?
And either way, is there a fusible link or fuse inline to protect this troublesome circuit?

More pics please...

The hardest part of this is that it’s so Random.

That's what concerns me. Would not bother me with any other system but the 2G, so what you want to do is (with the battery disconnected) remove the large connector from the side of the alternator. It should be EXTREMELY tight and give you trouble to remove. If it pops off easy you need to replace the connector.
Once you get it removed look inside each connection point with a bright light and make sure that the contact points are not burned, rusty or deformed in any way.
Then follow the two black wires to see what their condition is, and the condition of any splices or junctions.

The more I think about this being a grounding problem, as you mentioned above, would probably be the problem? Being so random and with the engine hot and vibrating is probably causing something to touch or create a loose ground.

Possible. And definitely do what Steve suggested and clean the surface under those grounding points of paint and make sure that the screw is a good tight fit into the metal.
Then make sure that the alternator case has a good clean contact point with the engine.
Then make sure that your main battery ground cable attaches directly to the engine block. The closer to the starter the better.
Then make sure you have those additional grounding points I mentioned.

Then, as a side project sometime I would do what Ford did and relocate the starter relay from the inner wheel well facing the headers and move it to a safer, cooler location. Whatever is most convenient, but Ford moved them to the side of the wheel well facing the battery in about '70 or '71 probably to protect this vital organ from excess heat and moisture.
They're pretty robust already, but are susceptible to stuff just like anything else. And even normal exhaust heat from manifolds is bad enough. The added radiation from headers is one of those extreme environmental challenges that need to be dealt with.
If the headers are ceramic coated or heat wrapped however, this is not as much of an issue. But I wanted to bring it up so you could make a determination.

Sounds like it's time to dig into the wiring a little deeper and maybe even mess up some of that nice wrapping and organizing temporarily until you find the issue.

Paul
 
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FrankSG

FrankSG

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Steve / Paul,

Good stuff on all of the grounding, relocation of the starter relay and cleanliness of the wires. Interestingly enough I relocated the ground cable from the battery to the engine block as mentioned. Once I did that I was getting 14.35 V. I’m rather surprised, I always thought that a clean ground to the frame was the best way to ground the battery. It was nice to drive around today having the confidence that I wouldn’t stall. :) Heat may be another issue, even though I’m running ceramic headers. My next task is to relocate any of those wires to a more robust, cleaner and cooler area. I’m going to upgrade to a 3G alternator as well, it’s a lot cheaper to replace an alternator rather than redoing a whole wiring harness or damaging sensors. I’m having some issues with low-voltage readings at a few sensors (code 121 and a few others related to high or lower voltage). I’ll be testing the TPS sensor on Monday to see what the voltage is (I believe the magic number is .98). I’m running a 100 amp alternator, do you believe that the low amp alternator would cause those low voltage errors?

Steve / Paul I’m not sure exactly how to post with my sig as you mentioned above?

Thanks again.

I’m always learning something new on this site.:):cool:
 
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DirtDonk

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I always thought that a clean ground to the frame was the best way to ground the battery.

Nope, not really. At least not without some variation on that theme.
The engine is where the biggest load (the starter) is.

It's not a bad thing to ground the frame, and I'm pretty sure older vehicles would ground the frame and engine to the same location. Older vehicles often used one of those wide, flat braided grounding straps that had the boss in the middle that was used to ground the frame or the body, then the other end continued on to the engine.
So grounding the frame is fine and a time honored practice. And maybe even where you got the idea from? But should only be in addition to the engine block. Not instead of.

Remember that in reality very few things are using the frame as their grounding point. It's just a convenient bit of metal that can be used as such. Only light duty things like the fuel sender or maybe two or three other things use the frame as ground. So if you use exclusively the frame, your starter motor is not getting the full juice because the current is trying to find it's way through rubber engine and trans mounts mounts.
It does of course, because there are plenty of bolts from metal to metal. But it's not always close and not the best way to pass that heavy current the starter needs.

So if you do use your frame as the main grounding point (or just want to keep your existing wiring), then you must run an additional ground cable from that same point on the frame over to the engine. This effectively connects the battery negative to the engine block, so the starter gets it's due.

And so that the ground wire between the engine and the cab/firewall takes full benefit as well.

I’m running a 100 amp alternator, do you believe that the low amp alternator would cause those low voltage errors?

No. Not usually.
First, if you see 14 at the battery you are not running low voltage. However if the code is an old one from when you were not getting the full 14.5v while driving, then yes absolutely it could be the cause.
But it's not the 100a capacity. A normal engine can run on just the little old 55a alternators. Just not very effectively or consistently. And consistency is what the engine computer wants. Hence the droning on about proper grounding, large enough wires and battery cables, and a good alternator.
The advantage of a 3g is it's simplicity, steady output including high output at low engine speeds like idling, but that 95 to 130 amp capability gives the system a lot of headroom. At 100+ amps your alternator has a long way to deteriorate before the computer starts getting wonky. A 40a alternator on the other hand has nowhere to go. If it starts to get older or the connections get corroded, it falls below the threshold quickly.
Modern alternators need that much juice not just to handle all the accessories, but to keep the computer from seeing low voltage when you're idling with everything running. You don't want the engine to cough just because you have the heater on while idling in the snow.

So your 100a is more than plenty. But you need to make sure it's capable of putting that much out if needed. Maybe have it tested if you ever happen to take it off the engine for whatever reason. It would suck to find out it's only capable of putting out 50a max, but would suck even more if you had to deal with it and never checked.

Steve / Paul I’m not sure exactly how to post with my sig as you mentioned above?

In the User CP (command post) up above to the left you can go in and change your personal settings. Somewhere in that menu of things you can do is a "change your signature" or something along those lines. Whatever you add to that will then show in your posts every time.

Paul
 

B RON CO

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Hi, the engine needs a big ground cable to the negative battery post because the motor mounts are made with a rubber cushion. Good luck
 

Steve83

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...I always thought that a clean ground to the frame was the best way to ground the battery.
This caption explains the concept & practice of "grounding":

(click this text)
I’m not sure exactly how to post with my sig as you mentioned above?
At the top of the page, pull down the Quick Menu and click Edit Signature.





I hate that this forum limits posts to 2 pics...
 

Steve83

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Heat may be another issue, even though I’m running ceramic headers.
Ceramic doesn't protect anything in the engine bay from the heat that inevitably comes off of headers - it only attempts to protect the metal headers from corrosion. If you want to reduce underhood temperatures, add stainless or Aluminum heat shields to the headers.
I’m going to upgrade to a 3G alternator...
You can either modify the wiring...

(click this text)


...or just swap it.

(click this text)
 

Steve83

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But make sure all the mounting surfaces are clean down to shiny metal.

(click this text)
...it’s a lot cheaper to replace an alternator rather than redoing a whole wiring harness or damaging sensors.
Those things aren't really choices. Swapping to a 3G will not fix any wiring harness problems that may be present; nor will it protect any sensors from damage. And keeping the 2G won't create wiring harness problems, or damage any sensors (unless the 2G catches fire).
I’ll be testing the TPS sensor on Monday to see what the voltage is (I believe the magic number is .98).
There is no magic number - the TPS output must match the green area on this graph:

(click this text)
 

Steve83

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I’m running a 100 amp alternator, do you believe that the low amp alternator...
100A is not "low", but what matters is how much current the truck normally uses, compared to the alternator's nominal output. Originally, an eB only used maybe 25A, so even a 40A alternator was plenty. But with EFI, A/C, a modern radio, extra lights, etc.; 100A might be borderline enough. You need to measure what the truck is actually using under various conditions.

(click this text)


This is actually measuring the alternator output, which is NOT necessarily the same as the TRUCK's draw:

(click this text)
 

Steve83

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The correct location to measure the truck's draw depends on exactly how the truck is wired. If it's an original harness in good condition, you'd measure the Bk/R or Bk/Y wire, like the original ammeter.

(click this text)


But after an EFI swap, I couldn't guess how you wired it.
...do you believe that the low amp alternator would cause those low voltage errors?
No. It's much more-likely that the BATTERY TERMINALS would cause voltage fault codes.

(click this text)


But as with ANY fault code, the first step is to confirm that the indicated condition actually exists. Is the voltage from those sensors actually low?
 
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