engine builders ??

[360 4V]

"but its tough to get both stronger and lighter in the same package."
Both are desireable in valvetrain. This supports my earlier thoughts on eliminating the pushrod from the design for higher rpms. However, pushrod engiens are smaller and weigh less. I am not comparing a small cast iron pushrod V8 to an all aluminum overhead can V8. this is a comparison between the two architectures both made of the same material. Pound per pound you could build a big block Chevy that weighs wat a 4.6L Modular does. Now Big block Fords like 460s are heavier than Modulars but Ford FEs and BBChevys are similar in weight to Modualrs. So would you rather have a 428 Cobra Jet that weighs ~650 lbs or a 650 lb Modular engine?

 

[broncnaz]

Well yes lighter and stronger is desireable in the valve train. maybe tough is not really the word expensive is more like it. but really unless you plan on running above 7000 RPM valve train wieght is really no big deal.
It really all depends on what I was going to use the engine for. In most cases I'd take the 428 any day. There a lot of differance between a big block and its torque compared to a mod engine thats basically a small block. Small engines need to rev big engines dont. As for weights the 5.4 mod engine is still about 100 lbs ligher than a FE. Its not until you get to the V10 mod engine that it weights about the same as a FE. of course you can shave a lot of weight off the FE with a aluminum manifold, heads and tubular headers.

 

[OX1]

I did not balance my engine and maybe I should. I bring this up because you come seeking adice on your engine and I don't want anything left on the table. We want your engine to be excellent.

What is a good guide line for not overrevving a 351W, 6,000 rpm max?

6000 on a regular basis is not really a good idea if it wasn't balanced. Why didn't you have it balanced?

 

[360 4V]

I have not balanced my engine yet because I started on the premise of an engine overhaul. Now I have the engine apart again to build it better. In balancing do I weigh all the pistons and connecting rods and assemble the engien with all connecting rods within a half gram of each other and the same for pistons? I worked in a Volkswagon shop for a while and one day I was gathering up old connnecting rods and the mechanic I was helping was weighing then and putting them in bins by their weight.

 

[360 4V]

I looked up engine weights and here's what I found:
FEs weigh 650 and 670 lbs, I think the heaivier was the overhead cam 427
I don't know if 429/460s weigh 640 or 720 lbs
330 Triton Modular weighs

By changing over to aluminum cylinder heads, intake manafold and timing cover on the FE reduced its weight by 92-lbs.

http://www.sullivanperformance.com/yvs450/tech/tech1.htm

http://www.team.net/sol/tech/engine.html

http://www.erareplicas.com/engines.htm

 

[360 4V]

It makes sense to replace cast iron with cast aluminum for machine cases like engine cases and gear boxes. I still prefer cast iron for crankshafts. Aluminum, obviously is what pistons have been made of for ever.

So what shouldn't be made of aluminum?
crankshafts
connecting rods
nuts and bolts
transmission internals
differenchial internals
axle tubes

 

[airbur]

I have not balanced my engine yet because I started on the premise of an engine overhaul. Now I have the engine apart again to build it better. In balancing do I weigh all the pistons and connecting rods and assemble the engien with all connecting rods within a half gram of each other and the same for pistons? I worked in a Volkswagon shop for a while and one day I was gathering up old connnecting rods and the mechanic I was helping was weighing then and putting them in bins by their weight.

The entire rotating assembly needs to be balanced at the same time....crank, pistons, rods, balancer, and flexplate or flywheel. It's not for the uninitiated and requires specialized equipment. You also need to choose 50 or 28 oz.

 

[broncnaz]

It makes sense to replace cast iron with cast aluminum for machine cases like engine cases and gear boxes. I still prefer cast iron for crankshafts. Aluminum, obviously is what pistons have been made of for ever.

So what shouldn't be made of aluminum?
crankshafts
connecting rods
nuts and bolts
transmission internals
differenchial internals
axle tubes

Pistons used to be steel. way before aluminum came along and even today steel is still used and some pistons use both aluminum and steel combined like diesels top part of the piston is steel but its more due to application. Although I have heard that the aftermarket is making these steel /aluminum pistons for some of the newer direct injection/turbo charged gas engines. but aside from that you pretty much have it down. I really prefer steel/iron for most things. transmission cases axlehousings ect. as aluminum tends to flex under the torque and allows deflection of the gears under high torque not really a good thing. IMO but if your going for lightweight then they are the thing to have. there are aluminum connecting rods they dont seem to have as much issues as other parts. for cranks well I'd want a forged steel crank. dont believe there are any aluminum cranks as its just to flexible for that.
really unless I was racing I wouldnt bother a whole lot with trying to go all aluminum.

X2 on the engine balacning comment. its a little more iinvolved than matching rod and piston weights. but thats a start and the part you can do yourself. It should even be blueprinted so you match the longest rods with the shortest pistons. ect.

 

[Broncobowsher]

No aluminum cranks as the material would be too suspetable to fatiuge.

Sorting VW rods was done years ago for a spec racing series. Engine had to be "stock" but you could balance and blueprint it. So people would go looking for the lightest rod they could, then balance the others to the lightest one. As long as one rod in the engine wasn't worked over (material removed from the balance pad) the engine was legal.

Ever been inside one of those 13,000 RPM sport bike engines? the valvetrain is very light. Mass is the killer to speed. heavy things changing direction doesn't like to happen quickly. that is where things like to come apart. Doesn't matter if it is the crank and rods or the valvetrain. Just whatever comes apart first will be what comes apart.

Mahle makes a lightweight steel piston for highly boosted Cummins BT engines. Hold one in your hand and it is amazing how light it is. Then think of the temps and pressures it takes and you will see why it is a good choice for that application.
Want something odd, back in the 70's there were aftermarket pistons made from Magnesium. (forgot the brand.) Didn't stay on the market very long. I am sure it was entertaining when the engine leaned out on the top end.

 

[360 4V]

"Want something odd, back in the 70's there were aftermarket pistons made from Magnesium. (forgot the brand.) Didn't stay on the market very long. I am sure it was entertaining when the engine leaned out on the top end."

Ha! Magnesium is brutally strong pound per pound but it sure does burn!

In regards to aluminum cases, you can get the same strength from steel with thinner walls. With this in mind I could build things just as light by using less material.

Even though steel wheels tend to be heavier than aluminum wheels, the aluminum wheels have to be built thicker than the steel for the same strength. So which material is stronger pound per pound?

 

[Ranchtruck]

 

[360 4V]

I dread the thought of replacing the camsafhts and lifters on my Modular! It is like $1,000 a pop.

(camshaft only):

2V $870
3V $950
4V $1,430
351W solid flat tappet $165-$169
351W solid roller: $370-$385
FE solid flat tappet: $169
429/460 solid flat tappet $169

I find it hard to leave flat-tappet land.

 

[broncnaz]

In regards to aluminum cases, you can get the same strength from steel with thinner walls. With this in mind I could build things just as light by using less material.

Even though steel wheels tend to be heavier than aluminum wheels, the aluminum wheels have to be built thicker than the steel for the same strength. So which material is stronger pound per pound?

Usually the weight differenace for like sized wheels is no more than 10 lbs thats basically between steel and cast aluminum forged alumnum is probably a bit more.
Actual strenght differance is kind of debateable between the steel and cast aluminum. but forged aluminum are stronger than either. So that kinda answers yur question. Steel has a big strenght advantage over cast plus steel can take more abuse. hit a curb with a steel wheel and little to no damage is done hit a curb with a cast wheel and well you may need a new one. Forged is more like steel it will have little to no damage.
Lighter wheels do have benefits though faster acceleration and braking are the main ones.
The drawback to aluminum is cost. especailly forged stuff.

Along those lines cost is what prevents making cases from thin steel vs cast iron not only that many things like transmission cases need more rididity than thin steel can provide thats why they are not made with thin steel. Just look at most aluminum transmissions and even some cast iron they have cast in ridges in the case to provide more strenght.

 

[360 4V]

Would forged aluminum be a good choice for a differenchial housing in conjunction with steel axle tubes?

 

[broncnaz]

I dread the thought of replacing the camsafhts and lifters on my Modular! It is like $1,000 a pop.

(camshaft only):

2V $870
3V $950
4V $1,430
351W solid flat tappet $165-$169
351W solid roller: $370-$385
FE solid flat tappet: $169
429/460 solid flat tappet $169

I find it hard to leave flat-tappet land.

The cams are roller cams so unless something really goes bad you should never have to replace them. lash adjusters maybe but cams unlikely.
I have a 03 ranger with the SHOC 4.0 dont know what the timing chain set costs for it but it has 3 chains and one is in the rear of the engine so you either have to pull the tranny or the engine to change the timing chain. And like the 4.6/5.4 you should also have some specail cam holding fixtures to prevent the cams from moving when reinstalling the chains so the timing stays where its supposed.

 

[360 4V]

If I can buy a roller motor for the same price as a non roller motor then the roller motor is a better investment. If I buy a "core" out of the junkyard because it is not a runner and it is a roller motor and the camshaft and lifters are sound then I saved mucho dinero. Since I am not racing a stock roller cam and lifters is probably the better investment.

 

[broncnaz]

Would forged aluminum be a good choice for a differenchial housing in conjunction with steel axle tubes?

I dont think anyone makes a forged aluminum diff case. I think they are all cast. for what its worth the nodular cast iron cases are still stronger. Aluminum can flex and may expand more when warmed up than cast iron and is probably not a good idea to use is heavier vehicles.

 

[broncojames]

what year did the 351W go to the roller rockers ?

 

[KyleQ]

what year did the 351W go to the roller rockers ?

You are on the internet - take a look around %)

Wiki - Roller lifters were introduced in this engine in 1994.

This thread topic has derailed itself multiple times and is just humerus at this point...

Lots of over thinking in this thread...

 

[Broncobowsher]

what year did the 351W go to the roller rockers ?

They never went to roller rockers. But in '94 they went to roller lifters.