Explorer 302 build

[STalon89]

So a couple years ago I came across a reman 97 explorer 302 engine. Im not getting to the point where its time to get it finished and in the truck. I am going to run stock front drive, sniper efi, c4 tranny, no AC. Basically need to know what Im overlooking that this engine may have that Ill need to convert or be aware of going back to a normal setup for this truck (other than headers for the GT40P heads)

Can I run an older style timing cover and go back to the factory serpentine setup?

Questions I have are things like flex plate, torque converter, stuff like that

 

[EPB72]

You will have to run the explorer timing cover to run the explorer serpentine set up..

if you run the old t cover then posible an older mustang serp. set up but I don't see much if any benifit from that,, also the explorer front cover wont work with any of the early drive belt set ups..

 

[STalon89]

You will have to run the explorer timing cover to run the explorer serpentine set up..

if you run the old t cover then posible an older mustang serp. set up but I don't see much if any benifit from that,, also the explorer front cover wont work with any of the early drive belt set ups..

I got the motor for a good price and I dont love the look of the explorer front dress. Truck is being built to sell, so Id like to keep it as simple as possible, and just run the old style timing cover. So I can use most of the accessories I currently have

 

[STalon89]

Need to hear from some explorer guys. I know youre out there lol

 

[DirtDonk]

Looks like it’s time for Friday-back-to-the-top post.

 

[bulletpruf]

I got the motor for a good price and I dont love the look of the explorer front dress. Truck is being built to sell, so Id like to keep it as simple as possible, and just run the old style timing cover. So I can use most of the accessories I currently have

I'll be in the same boat soon -- I have a stock 302 in my '69 but recently sourced a later model roller 302 with E7 heads.

I plan to harvest the timing cover off the original engine and run the stock '69 front dress. I'll run a carb, and I plan to run an original (but rebuilt) stock mechanical fuel pump with the provisions for vacuum for the wipers.

With EFI, I guess you'll be running an electric pump and a block off on the timing cover for the mechanical fuel pump.

 

[Jarrett h]

Why not just a basic CVF kit?

 

[STalon89]

I'll be in the same boat soon -- I have a stock 302 in my '69 but recently sourced a later model roller 302 with E7 heads.

I plan to harvest the timing cover off the original engine and run the stock '69 front dress. I'll run a carb, and I plan to run an original (but rebuilt) stock mechanical fuel pump with the provisions for vacuum for the wipers.

With EFI, I guess you'll be running an electric pump and a block off on the timing cover for the mechanical fuel pump.

Nice. I have all that ready to go as well

 

[STalon89]

Why not just a basic CVF kit?

Thats a good option. I hadnt thought of that route

 

[jamesroney]

Thats a good option. I hadnt thought of that route

So you have to be careful of a couple of details.
The Explorer and Mustang 5.0 SEFI uses a thicker timing gear, and no fuel pump eccentric. If you add the fuel pump eccentric from the EB on to the Explorer camshaft sprocket, then you need to machine the sprocket. If you use the EB sprocket, then you have to change the camshaft drive pin. The Explorer drive pin is too short to engage the fuel pump eccentric.

The whole Explorer vs Mustang 5.0 vs EB is all a bunch of compromises, and some very useful trivia. But the fundamental questions to @STalon89 are:

0. Do you have a power steering pump?
1. Which side do you want the lower radiator hose?
2. Are you now, or will you ever run EDIS, coil packs, and a crank trigger?
3. Do you want to be able to time the engine with a timing light?
4. Do you want to run an air conditioner compressor? (for AC, or for on board air?)

As soon as you say you want to buy a new radiator...the world is at your feet. You can spend yourself into oblivion. Aftermarket serpentine is expensive and useless. Aluminum pulleys are also expensive and useless. Drive accessory pulleys are intended to be made from steel.

If you are going to try to use the original Bronco radiator, and radiator hoses...then you constrain yourself to the 1969 Mustang 302 style accessories. (which are VERY similar to the 73-77 Bronco PS set up) The 1966 Ford Intermediate (Mustang, Fairlane, Torino, etc...) was the first year of the two groove lower crank pulley, and it changed every year until 1969. The are all the same, but a little bit different. Your Explorer 5.0 has a 50 oz-in imbalance crankshaft, and needs a 50 oz-in conversion damper in order to run the 3 bolt crankshaft pulley. They cost about $100. Just buy one. If you have Bronco pulleys, then you are all set. Do you have pulleys?

The important thing is to get the timing pointer installed on the timing cover. The conversion damper that you buy will be marked in all three Ford locations. So you are all set. Install the damper, and bring the engine to #1 TDC. mark the correct timing marks with a sharpie. Take a sander, or some paint, and obliterate the other TDC mark so that no one is ever tempted to try to use them. (don't go crazy here...)

You say you will run stock front drive, but you don't say what that means. Are you running a distributor? If so, then you need to source a oil pump drive gear that is compatible with the steel camshaft in the Explorer. Lots of mis-information on the web about this. Lots of people selling really expensive, non-solutions for this. The drive gear on your Explorer 5.0 camshaft phaser is 100% compatible with your camshaft, and is free. Just install it on your new distributor. Take the old gear off your old distributor and smash it with a hammer.

I just did an Explorer swap into my 1970 Bronco, and I'm running V-belts, factory radiator, factory hoses, and a Mustang 5.0 TFI distributor. The engine had a bad piston, but I went ahead and did a valve job, then replaced the rings, and installed new bearings, and then replaced the shortblock with another worn out 5.0 from an 89 Mustang. I went thru 4 sets of head gaskets on this project. It was a busy week. Now it's done, and I can answer questions on the internet. So do you have a specific question?

 

[.94 OR]

The newer block won't have clutch linkage mounts if you are dealing with a manual box.

 

[dieselfarmer]

So you have to be careful of a couple of details.
The Explorer and Mustang 5.0 SEFI uses a thicker timing gear, and no fuel pump eccentric. If you add the fuel pump eccentric from the EB on to the Explorer camshaft sprocket, then you need to machine the sprocket. If you use the EB sprocket, then you have to change the camshaft drive pin. The Explorer drive pin is too short to engage the fuel pump eccentric.

The whole Explorer vs Mustang 5.0 vs EB is all a bunch of compromises, and some very useful trivia. But the fundamental questions to @STalon89 are:

0. Do you have a power steering pump?
1. Which side do you want the lower radiator hose?
2. Are you now, or will you ever run EDIS, coil packs, and a crank trigger?
3. Do you want to be able to time the engine with a timing light?
4. Do you want to run an air conditioner compressor? (for AC, or for on board air?)

As soon as you say you want to buy a new radiator...the world is at your feet. You can spend yourself into oblivion. Aftermarket serpentine is expensive and useless. Aluminum pulleys are also expensive and useless. Drive accessory pulleys are intended to be made from steel.

If you are going to try to use the original Bronco radiator, and radiator hoses...then you constrain yourself to the 1969 Mustang 302 style accessories. (which are VERY similar to the 73-77 Bronco PS set up) The 1966 Ford Intermediate (Mustang, Fairlane, Torino, etc...) was the first year of the two groove lower crank pulley, and it changed every year until 1969. The are all the same, but a little bit different. Your Explorer 5.0 has a 50 oz-in imbalance crankshaft, and needs a 50 oz-in conversion damper in order to run the 3 bolt crankshaft pulley. They cost about $100. Just buy one. If you have Bronco pulleys, then you are all set. Do you have pulleys?

The important thing is to get the timing pointer installed on the timing cover. The conversion damper that you buy will be marked in all three Ford locations. So you are all set. Install the damper, and bring the engine to #1 TDC. mark the correct timing marks with a sharpie. Take a sander, or some paint, and obliterate the other TDC mark so that no one is ever tempted to try to use them. (don't go crazy here...)

You say you will run stock front drive, but you don't say what that means. Are you running a distributor? If so, then you need to source a oil pump drive gear that is compatible with the steel camshaft in the Explorer. Lots of mis-information on the web about this. Lots of people selling really expensive, non-solutions for this. The drive gear on your Explorer 5.0 camshaft phaser is 100% compatible with your camshaft, and is free. Just install it on your new distributor. Take the old gear off your old distributor and smash it with a hammer.

I just did an Explorer swap into my 1970 Bronco, and I'm running V-belts, factory radiator, factory hoses, and a Mustang 5.0 TFI distributor. The engine had a bad piston, but I went ahead and did a valve job, then replaced the rings, and installed new bearings, and then replaced the shortblock with another worn out 5.0 from an 89 Mustang. I went thru 4 sets of head gaskets on this project. It was a busy week. Now it's done, and I can answer questions on the internet. So do you have a specific question?

What Motor mounts did you use with the 5.0 build? Do you have any clearance issues with the hood? Are you using a mustang computer and wiring harness or aftermarket? I am interested in hearing any other thoughts you have with the 5.0 in the Bronco and if you would change anything? Does it have sufficient power for your needs? Thanks!

 

[jamesroney]

What Motor mounts did you use with the 5.0 build? Do you have any clearance issues with the hood? Are you using a mustang computer and wiring harness or aftermarket? I am interested in hearing any other thoughts you have with the 5.0 in the Bronco and if you would change anything? Does it have sufficient power for your needs? Thanks!

I used the factory EB mounts in their original location. I run a 2 inch body lift to accomodate my NV4500, so hood clearance is just fine.

I like that I can go to the parts store and order service parts for my “1974 Bronco” and it all fits.

I put an 89 5.0 shortblock in this one, so I get forged pistons for free.

I think I’ve built about 15 like this. I think it has plenty of power, but I pull it behind my 06 Mega Cab Cummins for long distance. So no complaints. I would estimate that it spends 95% of the time idling when off road. So smooth, reliable, quiet and cool horsepower is what I need.

 

[dieselfarmer]

I used the factory EB mounts in their original location. I run a 2 inch body lift to accomodate my NV4500, so hood clearance is just fine.

I like that I can go to the parts store and order service parts for my “1974 Bronco” and it all fits.

I put an 89 5.0 shortblock in this one, so I get forged pistons for free.

I think I’ve built about 15 like this. I think it has plenty of power, but I pull it behind my 06 Mega Cab Cummins for long distance. So no complaints. I would estimate that it spends 95% of the time idling when off road. So smooth, reliable, quiet and cool horsepower is what I need.

Thanks for the reply. What wiring harness and computer are you using? Did you modify a mustang harness or go with an aftermarket like Painless or Ron Francis? Do you by chance have a build thread?

 

[toddz69]

I just did an Explorer swap into my 1970 Bronco, and I'm running V-belts, factory radiator, factory hoses, and a Mustang 5.0 TFI distributor. The engine had a bad piston, but I went ahead and did a valve job, then replaced the rings, and installed new bearings, and then replaced the shortblock with another worn out 5.0 from an 89 Mustang. I went thru 4 sets of head gaskets on this project. It was a busy week. Now it's done, and I can answer questions on the internet. So do you have a specific question?

I like the old school Saginaw pump reservoir!

Todd Z.

 

[jamesroney]

Thanks for the reply. What wiring harness and computer are you using? Did you modify a mustang harness or go with an aftermarket like Painless or Ron Francis? Do you by chance have a build thread?

Build thread. Now that's funny. It goes something like this:

1. Buy a used Explorer engine from a local dismantler.
2. Disassemble and clean engine with Explorer front dress.
2.5 Install TFI distributor in Explorer cam phaser hole, and determine that you can't exactly adjust timing.
3. Remove and delete Explorer Serpentine front dress.
4. Change mind, and run v-belts. Buy conversion damper, and 50 oz-in flywheel.
5. Assemble engine with used saginaw power steering pump received as a gift. (more later...)
6. Install Fox Mustang valve covers, throttle body, but keep GT40 lower, and upper. Drill and tap bung for IAT sensor. Drill and tap bung for ECT sensor. Drill and tap all of the extra vacuum holes in the intake. Argue with yourself for a LONG time about whether the oil scavenging feature of the 2nd PCV pickup port is worth keeping in the upper plenum. Send plenum out for powdercoat.
7. Assemble engine with Bronco accessories, and exhaust manifolds.
8. Build exhaust system.
9. Install TDZ / Ron Francis / RJM motorsports harness with used and dubious A9L mustang ECM.
10. Install 23 gallon fuel tank with internal EFI pump. Look all over the shop for some gasoline. Figure out that you used up all your gasoline, buy you still have about 1/2 gallon of lawnmower fuel available. Pour 1/2 gallon of gasoline into tank. (this will become important later...)
11. Install fuel lines, return lines, vacuum hoses, power steering, alternator, and a Centech chassis wiring harness.
12. Fire up engine. Disconnect SPOUT and Set initial timing. Listen for knock, noise, oil pressure, misfire, etc. Kinda noisy, but it runs.
12.5 Schedule appointment with paint shop for paint. Make plan to drop off in 3 days. Start to hurry up.
13. Try to restart. Won't start. Check spark, and fuel. check compression.
14. No compression on cylinder #4 &7 30 psi on cyl #1, 2, and 8, 60 psi on cyl 5,6 120 psi on cyl 3. Find aluminum shavings from step 6 on one spark plug. Determine that compression failure is due to aluminum shavings stuck under valve heads.
15. Remove cylinder heads. Check cylinder taper and ridge. Look for cross hatch marks on left bank. Assume right side is just as good.
16. Remove valves, find some debris, but not bad. Clean heads, Hand lap valves, install valve seals. Heads look good now.
17. Reinstall heads. Better hurry, getting dark. Only have 2 days to get to paint.
17.5 Did you know that 1996 Explorer 5.0s use Flanged Torque to Yield head bolts? Did you know that you can't re-use them? Did you know that I can, and did, and they are fine. But I did do an fairly thorough Young's' modulus and strain recovery analysis on carbon steel and determined that the number of allowable yield cycles for a long head bolt is "more than 1" and the number of allowable yield cycles for the short head bolt is "fewer." So yeah, pre-torque to 55 lb-ft and then an additional 70 degrees. Maybe 50 degrees next time. I have a couple of engineering degrees, so I allow myself to re-use the $45 TTY fasteners. Your results may vary...
18. Restart engine. No compression. Spins super easy. (Did I leave out the spark plugs?) Check compression. Same results as #14. UGH.
19. Check valve timing. Remove timing cover. Get mad, and decide to fire it up without a timing cover in place. See blowby escaping crankcase during crank.
20. Perform leak down test. Cannot make compression on cyl #7.
21. Still gotta hurry. Down to one day. Pray for rain. Pull heads AGAIN. Buy more head gaskets. Did you know that you can buy a Fel Pro head set cheaper than you can buy 2 individual head gaskets? Hope that you can salvage your new, but never fired head gaskets. Yeah...no. Buy more head gaskets.
22. Order rings, and a set of rod and main bearings. Pull pistons. Realize that you already rolled a set of bearings into this engine 3 months ago. (back when you swore you would never install another engine without putting bearings in it.)
23. Find collapsed rings on 7 cylinders. Find scored piston and melted crown on piston #4. Decide to risk it, and clean pistons. Break ring land cleaner on these thin metric rings. Clean pistons by hand with used piston ring ground down as a chisel. Bust ridge on Cyl #7, Glaze break all other cyls. Find scoring on cyl #4. Probably should bore it. Gotta hurry. Only one more day until paint. Get some heavy grit stones, and power hone cyl 4. Take out about .005. Feels OK. Reassemble with new rings, bearings, gaskets, etc. Throw in a new set of hydraulic roller lifters. Do this process "in-frame" because of step 12.5.
24. Fire up engine. Disconnect SPOUT. WOW, it runs great. But what is that KNOCKING?
25. Allow to reach temperature. Check all vitals. Burn off the quart of coolant that drained into the exhaust head pipe. Hope that knocking goes away. It doesn't . Rain has come. Painter calls and delays two weeks. Relief!
26. Get pissed off, perform cylinder balance test. Notice that knocking is reduced when #4 plug is defeated.
27. Go on internet. Find a shortblock Mustang 5.0 on Craigslist for $300. Drive to Vacaville. Buy engine. Condition unknown.
28. Put Mustang block on stand. Remove heads to check bore, wear, etc. Check bearings. Here we go again.
29. Remove Explorer engine from Bronco, with intent to use fresh GT40 heads on Mustang. Pull pistons and crankshaft. Harvest camshaft, bearings, rings, crank, and heads. Find collapsed skirt on piston #4. Out about .020.
30. Reassemble Mustang 5.0 with parts harvested from Explorer. Replace rear main seal, bearings, rings, heads. Try desperately to remove pilot bearing for the NV4500 from the Explorer crank. UGH! what to do? Destroy the pilot bearing? Swap crankshafts? Do you suppose that the 96 Explorer 5.0 crank is balanced to the same bobweight as an 89 Mustang 5.0 crank? Wait a minute, this Mustang has Forged TRW pistons in it. Those can't be the same weight as the cast pistons in an Explorer??? Destroy pilot bearing from Explorer crank. Find pilot bushing for Bronco. Machine bushing to .750 for NV4500 input. Use Mustang shortblock. Relieve area near bell bolt for clutch linkage bracket.
31. Reinstall engine. Fire it up. Runs GREAT! but what is this noise? Go back to step 5. @toddz69 Remember that PS pump? Well, you have to keep it full, or else it makes noise. Fine, FIXED. Allow to run and idle, and get warm. Finally! It runs perfect. But then stumbles...and misfires, and stalls. Will not re-start. WTF??? (If you made it this far, you might remember step 10...) Yeah, I ran it out of fuel. Go to gas station, get 5 gallons of hi-test. Try again.

So that was the last 2 WEEKS. Who in the world would want this build thread, and who would want to follow that mess. My advice is now the same for auto repair, as for 4 wheeling. Do NOT follow me. You won't' make it, and you don't want to get there. The view is not worth the climb.

 

[toddz69]

Good lord almighty!! I couldn't get those 31 steps done in 10 years of work!

Todd Z.

 

[Speedrdr]

I might could get them all done in a reasonable amount of time, but I’d need somebody (like my wife) to keep me task oriented. Lol

Randy

 

[dieselfarmer]

I can share in your frustrations and appreciate the summary! I have had some similar experiences. BTW, with respect to your "used and dubious A9L ECM", you might consider sending it to ECU Exchange for a refurbish. I have had good success with them checking out several A9L and A9P computers in the past.

 

[lars]

Build thread. Now that's funny. It goes something like this:

1. Buy a used Explorer engine from a local dismantler.
2. Disassemble and clean engine with Explorer front dress.
2.5 Install TFI distributor in Explorer cam phaser hole, and determine that you can't exactly adjust timing.
3. Remove and delete Explorer Serpentine front dress.
4. Change mind, and run v-belts. Buy conversion damper, and 50 oz-in flywheel.
5. Assemble engine with used saginaw power steering pump received as a gift. (more later...)
6. Install Fox Mustang valve covers, throttle body, but keep GT40 lower, and upper. Drill and tap bung for IAT sensor. Drill and tap bung for ECT sensor. Drill and tap all of the extra vacuum holes in the intake. Argue with yourself for a LONG time about whether the oil scavenging feature of the 2nd PCV pickup port is worth keeping in the upper plenum. Send plenum out for powdercoat.
7. Assemble engine with Bronco accessories, and exhaust manifolds.
8. Build exhaust system.
9. Install TDZ / Ron Francis / RJM motorsports harness with used and dubious A9L mustang ECM.
10. Install 23 gallon fuel tank with internal EFI pump. Look all over the shop for some gasoline. Figure out that you used up all your gasoline, buy you still have about 1/2 gallon of lawnmower fuel available. Pour 1/2 gallon of gasoline into tank. (this will become important later...)
11. Install fuel lines, return lines, vacuum hoses, power steering, alternator, and a Centech chassis wiring harness.
12. Fire up engine. Disconnect SPOUT and Set initial timing. Listen for knock, noise, oil pressure, misfire, etc. Kinda noisy, but it runs.
12.5 Schedule appointment with paint shop for paint. Make plan to drop off in 3 days. Start to hurry up.
13. Try to restart. Won't start. Check spark, and fuel. check compression.
14. No compression on cylinder #4 &7 30 psi on cyl #1, 2, and 8, 60 psi on cyl 5,6 120 psi on cyl 3. Find aluminum shavings from step 6 on one spark plug. Determine that compression failure is due to aluminum shavings stuck under valve heads.
15. Remove cylinder heads. Check cylinder taper and ridge. Look for cross hatch marks on left bank. Assume right side is just as good.
16. Remove valves, find some debris, but not bad. Clean heads, Hand lap valves, install valve seals. Heads look good now.
17. Reinstall heads. Better hurry, getting dark. Only have 2 days to get to paint.
17.5 Did you know that 1996 Explorer 5.0s use Flanged Torque to Yield head bolts? Did you know that you can't re-use them? Did you know that I can, and did, and they are fine. But I did do an fairly thorough Young's' modulus and strain recovery analysis on carbon steel and determined that the number of allowable yield cycles for a long head bolt is "more than 1" and the number of allowable yield cycles for the short head bolt is "fewer." So yeah, pre-torque to 55 lb-ft and then an additional 70 degrees. Maybe 50 degrees next time. I have a couple of engineering degrees, so I allow myself to re-use the $45 TTY fasteners. Your results may vary...
18. Restart engine. No compression. Spins super easy. (Did I leave out the spark plugs?) Check compression. Same results as #14. UGH.
19. Check valve timing. Remove timing cover. Get mad, and decide to fire it up without a timing cover in place. See blowby escaping crankcase during crank.
20. Perform leak down test. Cannot make compression on cyl #7.
21. Still gotta hurry. Down to one day. Pray for rain. Pull heads AGAIN. Buy more head gaskets. Did you know that you can buy a Fel Pro head set cheaper than you can buy 2 individual head gaskets? Hope that you can salvage your new, but never fired head gaskets. Yeah...no. Buy more head gaskets.
22. Order rings, and a set of rod and main bearings. Pull pistons. Realize that you already rolled a set of bearings into this engine 3 months ago. (back when you swore you would never install another engine without putting bearings in it.)
23. Find collapsed rings on 7 cylinders. Find scored piston and melted crown on piston #4. Decide to risk it, and clean pistons. Break ring land cleaner on these thin metric rings. Clean pistons by hand with used piston ring ground down as a chisel. Bust ridge on Cyl #7, Glaze break all other cyls. Find scoring on cyl #4. Probably should bore it. Gotta hurry. Only one more day until paint. Get some heavy grit stones, and power hone cyl 4. Take out about .005. Feels OK. Reassemble with new rings, bearings, gaskets, etc. Throw in a new set of hydraulic roller lifters. Do this process "in-frame" because of step 12.5.
24. Fire up engine. Disconnect SPOUT. WOW, it runs great. But what is that KNOCKING?
25. Allow to reach temperature. Check all vitals. Burn off the quart of coolant that drained into the exhaust head pipe. Hope that knocking goes away. It doesn't . Rain has come. Painter calls and delays two weeks. Relief!
26. Get pissed off, perform cylinder balance test. Notice that knocking is reduced when #4 plug is defeated.
27. Go on internet. Find a shortblock Mustang 5.0 on Craigslist for $300. Drive to Vacaville. Buy engine. Condition unknown.
28. Put Mustang block on stand. Remove heads to check bore, wear, etc. Check bearings. Here we go again.
29. Remove Explorer engine from Bronco, with intent to use fresh GT40 heads on Mustang. Pull pistons and crankshaft. Harvest camshaft, bearings, rings, crank, and heads. Find collapsed skirt on piston #4. Out about .020.
30. Reassemble Mustang 5.0 with parts harvested from Explorer. Replace rear main seal, bearings, rings, heads. Try desperately to remove pilot bearing for the NV4500 from the Explorer crank. UGH! what to do? Destroy the pilot bearing? Swap crankshafts? Do you suppose that the 96 Explorer 5.0 crank is balanced to the same bobweight as an 89 Mustang 5.0 crank? Wait a minute, this Mustang has Forged TRW pistons in it. Those can't be the same weight as the cast pistons in an Explorer??? Destroy pilot bearing from Explorer crank. Find pilot bushing for Bronco. Machine bushing to .750 for NV4500 input. Use Mustang shortblock. Relieve area near bell bolt for clutch linkage bracket.
31. Reinstall engine. Fire it up. Runs GREAT! but what is this noise? Go back to step 5. @toddz69 Remember that PS pump? Well, you have to keep it full, or else it makes noise. Fine, FIXED. Allow to run and idle, and get warm. Finally! It runs perfect. But then stumbles...and misfires, and stalls. Will not re-start. WTF??? (If you made it this far, you might remember step 10...) Yeah, I ran it out of fuel. Go to gas station, get 5 gallons of hi-test. Try again.

So that was the last 2 WEEKS. Who in the world would want this build thread, and who would want to follow that mess. My advice is now the same for auto repair, as for 4 wheeling. Do NOT follow me. You won't' make it, and you don't want to get there. The view is not worth the climb.

Bless you. It would seem that you don't value sleep much. Or your world operates like Alvin and the Chipmunks (thus dating myself). One of these days I will not be working on winged devils and I'm going to get my POS running again and drive it down to your part of the world so you can critique mine and I can stand in awe of what you are able to accomplish so quickly. And I'd love to see the analysis from step 17.5. I too have a few engineering degrees but I've forgotten almost everything. Atrophy...