Had a Failure - Attention Transmission Gurus

[broncoman1972]

A couple of weeks ago the trans on my EB let me down. I suspect a failed converter but looking for input before pulling it out so I'll have a game plan. Here's what happened:

The previous times I've driven everything has been fine. No shifting issues, trans temp staying under 180 ish. Drove it to work on Friday and noticed the converter would not lock when I threw the switch. I tried a couple of times with the same result. When I got on the interstate I threw the switch but was hauling a** and didn't pay attention to if it locked up. After a few miles I noticed the trans temp was hitting 200+ for the 1st time ever. I unlocked the converter and the temp came down. Everything else was fine the rest of the way to work. After work when driving home I made sure not to lock the converter at all. About half way home (maybe 12 miles or so) on accel from a stop the trans started whining bad. It was all of a sudden. No noise before the stop. No odd jerks, bumps or anything either. I noticed a lack of umph almost immediately. It would whine only under load and went away on deceleration. The trans temp would go to 210 or so on accel the drop to around 200 at steady 59 mph. After one stop at a light it revved but didn't pull when I 1st hit the gas. Eventually it pulled and got me home. When I eased into the carport and tried to back up a but it stopped pulling again.

Yesterday I drained the fluid and pulled the pan. The fluid was not burnt and absolutely no metal was in the pan. There is a bit of clutch material and some water droplets (no doubt from my deep water rescue last year.) The only odd thing is that some of the material looks kind of an orange color. A pic is below but it doesn't do justice.

So. I'm thinking the converter let go. Hoping the pump wasn't damaged since the is no metal in the pan. Can anyone offer any input on if this sounds logical. I'm basically trying to determine if I should just drop the trans and replace the conversation. Also, should I pull the pump and inspect it? Or, should I pull the whole thing apart and go through it?

For those not familiar with my build it's a 4r70w, no computer, full manual reverse valve body with braking in all gears. It's got about 6500 miles on it since it was built. Also to note: the 1st RMVB wasn't successful (never got down my street), 2nd had some trouble that was determined to be the fact that I used a gasket when installing it so some holes didn't match up (only made it back and forth on my street before being corrected.) And lastly, I had to make an adjustment to the switch that energizes the solenoids that lock 4th gear. The were getting powered when shifting to 2nd causing a bad flair.

So what does the peanut gallery think?

Thanks,
Mike

 

[DirtDonk]

No idea, but back to the top for others to see.

But let's get this straight too. You had a deep water crossing where you probably got water in the gear boxes and did not change the fluid at that time? And you did not drive it regularly after that for at least a bit to let things heat up and dry out the water left inside? Sounds like a recipe for trouble right there from a strictly by-the-book standpoint, but I don't know if a 4R is any more or less susceptible to trouble from sitting water or not.
Or did you drive it regularly after that incident?

If so then the water droplets still sound strange, after a fairly long drive at 180-200 degrees. You would think that the little bit of water would have evaporated. Unless there was a LOT of water left in it, and all you're seeing in the pan are what's left after it didn't all evaporate.
You think it's possible that a fair amount of water got in? The odd orange color (you're right that it doesn't come through in the pics that I can see at least) is very possibly rusty metal. Might be as simple as the metal particles of the clutches you're seeing. But just as possible is rust color from other things.

When you drained it, did you see any hint of water in the draining fluid?

Good luck! Hope you don't have to pull it either. Just not sure what a converted trans like that goes through with the manual body and all that. The fact that it was running good for thousands of miles is a good thing. But your description of the symptoms doesn't sound encouraging.

Hopefully an expert will say just change the fluid and that'll fix it!

Paul

 

[broncoman1972]

I never drained it after the deep water excursion. The water was to the floor pans and I was in it that deep for maybe a minute or 2 while moving. When I stopped to load it was just over hub deep. I checked the diffs and t-case and they had no water. You really can't see water in the fluid that was drained out either. Just some very small droplets on the pan. its seen plenty of driving since with no problems to report. I know it will have to come out to replace the converter. The more i think about it the more I believe that is all thats wrong. We will see.

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[DirtDonk]

Well that's likely good news, even though the bad news is that the trans still has to come out. Bummer in the (late) summer.
So the droplets might just have been recent condensation then? Maybe, especially if it wasn't driven much recently before this. Though you would think that would all have been gone after your trip at the high temps.
But I'm not sure about how efficient a trans is at evaporating moisture in the fluid. It's not like it's got something similar to a PCV system, so guessing it just goes out the top case vent when it can.

Good luck.

Paul

 

[73azbronco]

I'm not seeing water per say, I'm seeing a lot of clutch material failure for whatever reason. If it looks like that, I hate to say, I think you need to pull and investigate further. I don't think your going to get water inside an auto unless your over the fill tube. The water you saw was most likely just condensation. Orrrrrrrrrr, maybe a leak from the tranny into the tranny cooler lines?

 

[Rustytruck]

You can leak water in if the water is up over the transmission to transfer case adapter. There is a vent on top of the adapter. I put a compression fitting in that vent and ran a piece of tubing from the adapter to the top of the firewall in the engine compartment.

 

[broncoman1972]

Thanks guys. Rusty, I too have a vent run to the top of the firewall so that shouldn't be where it came from. Also, I am not using the cooler in the radiator so that is eliminated. Since it shifted so good leading up to the failure and there's no metal in the pan I think I may just pull it and replace the converter. There is a bit of clutch material in the pan, but I'm not sure it's really a concern. Plus the fluid doesn't smell the slightest bit burnt. I'm going to do that then see how it does.

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[73azbronco]

Those particles will foul the valve body real bad.

 

[Rustytruck]

I would check all the end play specs. I would unstack the tranny and check the clutch clearences. Its not too bad to unstack the tranny. Then restack the tranny and air check it.

 

[broncoman1972]

Both good points. I can easily drop and clean the valve body to be sure and I have access to an air check plate at work.

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[73azbronco]

locked converter with a switch? Is it electrical?

 

[WheelHorse]

There was a joke back in the day, a thimble full of water was all it took to wipe out an automatic.

 

[Rustytruck]

its even worse with the newer automatics it really screws up the seals in the solenoids making them malfunction.

 

[broncoman1972]

locked converter with a switch? Is it electrical?

Yes. Key on 12v supplied to the converter solenoid just like factory, toggle on the shifter console to provide ground. Keep in mind, reverse manual valve body so no computer control.

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[broncoman1972]

There was a joke back in the day, a thimble full of water was all it took to wipe out an automatic.

I hope not now. We'll see

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[broncoman1972]

its even worse with the newer automatics it really screws up the seals in the solenoids making them malfunction.

Ditto for this, except in my case solenoids only control converter lockup and 2 shift solenoids are used to engage overdrive while in 3rd gear. If it were a solenoid failure I'd have 1-3 and reverse.

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