How far is far enough on a restoration? Is concourse too far?

[NGABronco]

CONCOURSE (kong'kors) arriving together;an assemmbly; a place for assemmbly. ??:? I think it could only be this way once. Just my 2CNT.;D

I understand that defination, but then a restoration would not count????%)

Wait, that's the defination of the event! At a "Concours Event" you could have restored vehicles, but who determines what is correct for that vehicle??

Does that make sense???

 

[half cab]

Yep it do and I'm not assemmbly Concours myself---??????Yet

 

[pierr]

Me personally..I don't think I'd ever put over ~$25K into restoring one..unless I planned on keeping it until I perish. I say that simply because you'll have a He--uva time EVER getting your $$$ back out of an EB.. unlike SOME muscle-cars where you could stand to actually make a profit/break-even on the years of hard work & thousands of $$$ invested. Besides..most EB owners don't even care for uncut,"stock" rigs..BluBuckaroo. Me..I do appreciate a "stocker" & believe that if found close to original,it should be kept at least uncut w/ stockish interior. When I bought mine(2005) it still had the 10/1972 thermostat & plug wires on it,48,000 one-owner miles but I knew that to actually drive & enjoy it..I'd have to re-do/modify EVERY system on it..leading to a "resto-mod". Enough rambling..build it to suit your tastes/usage and DON'T plan on getting your $$$ back out of it! Pierr.

 

[Broncitis]

Nick,

I have not yet met you or had a chance to discuss or show you our Broncos in detail and will try not to take offense to your unsolicited critique in a public forum. I would have been glad to address each of your points in an email or PM.%)

However, I will still address your questions and give you a bit more info on this Bronco since you seem so interested in it:

This Bronco was purchased with less than 10K original miles from the second owner who lived in Montana. He purchased it from a Ford dealer which owned it since new until they went out of business in the mid 80's. This was not a rotted out Bronco pieced together with every reproduction or NOS piece we could find. There was not a single piece of sheetmetal replaced in it (including inner fender aprons).

We did not have countless hours tracking down parts because 98% of them were there when we got it and as we showed it for a few years prior to the body-off.

Last year the son of the owner of the dealership tracked us down though Tim's website and sent us a vintage picture of it with the plow. He told us he learned to drive in this Bronco.

The Bronco is currently stored at a friends shop so I can not go out to look at each item so this will be from memory:

1) As Scoop pointed out, the 40th hood is a spare I had in my parts pile that we did just for the 40th event. We did not want to apply the graphics to the original which was repainted during the restoration and lives in a crate in the rafters of my shop. We did not intend to leave the 40th hood on and never initially intended to get all the signatures of the Baja legends and Edsel Ford II and Henry Ford III on it. The Baja legend signatures was a last minute thought on the drive out to the 40th events in Victorville ,CA. Since it is now so unique, we decided to keep it on there and have run it through all the AACA judging with it and even had a few points deducted for it by one judge, but not enough to hurt us in getting its Grand National award.

2)I thought the tailgate was an early one as I recall with the different body line than later years but I'd have to verify it. It is the one that came with the Bronco to us.

3)This mirror was also installed when we got it, so we left it as is.

4)The original clamps that came on it were tower style (and a few modern worm drive that were replaced at some point) and we bought reproduction tower style based on that. Page 6 of the 68 sales brochure appears to show some tower style clamps (66 1st or 2nd printing does not have detailed illustrations or photos and the angle of the images in the 67 brochure do not show them).

5)This Bronco had a windshield wiper delete option as I have seen on a couple others. No holes in the original hood for nozzles or in the inner fender for the bag bracket. You can chock that up as one of your occasional bits of knowledge since I guess you were unaware of this option? It also has the optional RH roadster mirror option and is marked "RH MIR" on the original buck tag that is still wired to the firewall.

6)45 year old original webbing will tend to have a little fade to it, but I have not had too much better than these that I can recall from any of the 40-50 Broncos we have had, especially early ones.

7)Yep, 45 year old rubber is like that. My Dad has had an order in with Tim for one of his repros as I recall.

8)Again, yes, old rubber is hard to keep from showing age. We found an NOS one, but for the $450 he wanted on what could easily end up being a piece of rubber that will split and crack due to age, we passed. If it were a hard part it would be worth it to us, but not on soft goods like that. For that coin, I'd rather invest in having them reproduced myself. I started looking into that, but it is only one of many irons in the fire for me and not a real priority at this point since we already have already received the highest award level AACA has to offer.

Yes, the list is longer, but I'm not telling you :-X You will have to find them on your own.;D

We have never claimed it to be perfect the magazine did. I know there are a few items that may not be correct or some flaws in the paint / body, etc. However, it is ours and we are 100% happy with it and it has allowed us to go to some great places and meet people and do things we could have never done otherwise.

BTW, for the record, the 77 Ranger is not "perfect" either. Damn nice if I do say so myself, but certainly not perfect by any means. Same with the Stroppe ambulance Ballon Chaser. Not even close to being perfect, but our most prized addition yet.

I can guarantee you that I can find imperfections and flaws in just about restoration (especially Broncos). A couple of the other notable ones out there have some much more significant flaws than what you have pointed out, but I would never post that in a public forum (and would not likely even mention them to the owners unless asked or discussing the detail level of such things).

Good luck with your project. I am very much looking forward to seeing it....VERY CLOSELY. ;D

We will likely have the U13, Ranger and Ambulance down at my place next month for the MEB Wrench & Roast. If you would like to attend to help wrench you are more than welcome to to bring your flashlight and magnifying glass. %)

i am an avid bronco nut and know quite a bit about these trucks especially the early build 1966 models. with that being said i have been collecting NOS parts and the occasional bits of knowledge that i didn't already know for a 1966 roadster restoration that i am working on. i was planning on a concourse restoration being as close to factory as possible but the more i look at other high quality restorations they are not that way.... in some cases not even close!

i bring this up because in the latest edition of bronco driver magazine (which i love dearly) there was a picture of the Peroni's 40th anniversary bronco and the caption stated "absolutely perfect". first off the build is super nice and it may be one of the nicer body / paint jobs i have ever seen but quite frankly its not even close to perfect! i know, i know, gasp! let me explain;

1) the hood is a 67 not a 66 (because they do not re-pop 66 hoods)
2) the tailgate is a 68 and newer not a 66 (same reason as the hood)
3) i am under the impression that a windshield mounted rear view mirror is actually correct and not a windshield frame mounted.
4) looking at 66 broncos that i have parted and some of the time correct brochures ive seen i believe that the factory hose clamps should be band clamps and not tower clamps.
5) missing the windshield washer system.
6) seat belt set in "nice" at best condition.
7) drivers side air vent seal beat. (tim hullick has this covered)
8) and of coarse the 66 t case shifter boot but ill probably not even find one of them..... tim? lol.

i noticed that list after a quick look the list may be longer. now i mean no disrespect at all for a certainly FIRST CLASS build but its not perfect and not concourse.

so my question is: HOW PERFECT IS TOO PERFECT? jeff leslie got 60k for a amazingly close restoration but in the pictures i saw the hood wasn't year correct either! what gives!?

are broncos just not worth the extra time it takes to find a good 66 hood?

 

[Broncitis]

I understand that defination, but then a restoration would not count????%)

Wait, that's the defination of the event! At a "Concours Event" you could have restored vehicles, but who determines what is correct for that vehicle??

Does that make sense???

A good friend of ours is a former AACA judge and has won true Concours events at Pebble Beach and Amilia Island with his 1903 Cadillacs.

Many vehicles at these shows are intentionally "over restored". The frames and wooden spoked wheels are glass smooth, pinstriped, and near flawless. FAR from what was originally produced.

I'm not sure on all the classifications and guidlines for AACA (My dad and his buddy did all those shows, I have never been to one with him).

There are some other groups that I have heard of such as Model A's and Corvettes at Bloomington that can get so picky as to the exact number of threads exposed on a stud or bolt that will cost points. I truly hope Broncos would never reach that detail level as it seems to take more fun out of it for most than serve a real good purpose.

 

[Broncitis]

To be concourse you need only original parts or at lease NOS parts. My thoughts are get as close as possible and enjoy your EB. Or go concourse and don't forget to leave the spot welds visable. I like the better than stock look. IMHO

I'm thinking this may not be correct. Many of the very old cars that our friend does requires many parts to be reproduced (he has a wall full of wooden patterns for castings and makes his own wood frames and bodies). They make their living restoring these and reproducing bodies. Many of these cars were very rare and parts are simply non-existant. He has a 1907 Franklin that is only one of 2 or 3 known to exist and one of the others is a basket case.

As I mentioned in my last post, many of the concours vehicles are what I see as being way over restored, so visible spot welds may not be the requirement, but there may be some other classes where they are?

 

[Broncitis]

Jesus, calm down. The guy used an example from a national publication to help explain the question he was asking. It never fails to astound me how easily people get their panties in a bunch....

Not in a bunch and not wound up. Just addressing the comments with facts, providing some more info and providing my point of view that it was in poor taste to make an enumerated post such as he did. My sentiments were obviously shared by some others who texted and left voicemails for me today which is how I heard about it.

We've never claimed any to be 100% perfect and never would. It is not our style even if we thought we had one as such. We know what we have, enjoy them as they as they are for what they are and at the end of the day that is all that truly matters to us regardless of any differing opinions or judges score cards.

Since Nick is from Philly, I would suggest that he come out and join MEB, attend events, lean more about Broncos and share what he knows and has built. However, it would be more welcomed if done in a way that is more commonly accepted by many of us who also love to talk Broncos and know a thing or two about them as well.

We learn new stuff about them all the time, especially the early stuff which had so many quirks. In fact, I think a friend who just sent me a PM about this thread may have just taught me something else I was not aware of.

There are still numerous voids of information and uncertainly on some configurations and options or deletes today. There was even less readily available information and cumulative research and knowledge within the community when we started the resto on this 66 U13 about 7-8 years ago. Hardly anyone was really into early production Broncos, especially original 6 cylinder models until the last 3-4 years. Partly may be due to the exposure that a handful such as ours and Terry Marvel's have received and also due to the work that Tim has done with the U13 website.

Over the last several years I have also noticed there has also been a marked increase in the detail and completeness level of restorations going on vehicles such as Jeff's (Gaspig) U13 and the Baja's of Jack, Andrew and Andy. All very nice pieces of work that I'd be proud to own to say the least.

 

[Broncitis]

I am about to paint my 67 sport. I have tried pretty hard to get an all original rig. I had to replace a rotted floor pan in the rear and drivers side. How many non rotted floors still exist? That being the case if one has to replace floors is it still concourse? The floors I purchased didn't fit perfectly but once it is Seam sealed and painted it will look good. You'd have to be very particular to notice. All this being the case, I felt very limited by the "concourse" standard. In the end I am painting it a British racing green. Looks period specific but suits my wants.

Replacement floor pans will not get points deducted if executed so the finished product is done well (nice clean plug welds vs. factory style spot welds should be fine).

As for color, for AACA it is my understanding that it does not have to be the actual original color that your specific vehicle came from the factory with, but it does have to be a factory correct color for that year.

With that said, AACA judges are not Bronco experts by any means. Some are Ford experts in general and will catch many things, but many things can slide by if they appear factory or period correct. It is just not possible to have expert judges for every type of vehicle they see.

 

[KuttySark]

Hey Drew. All great points and well stated. But know this: you have a nice Bronco (several actually). That means:

 

[delconick]

no, no no, not a hater! i guess the original reason for me posting this was overlooked!

fist off, drew, i offer my apologies and never intended to insult you in any way! in no way was this a poke at you or your fantastic work (which i mentioned) and if i thought that you would take any offense to this then i would have never posted it.

the purpose to this thread was simply for the pursuit of knowledge. (just as a bronco could be bought without a wiper system is new to me). because i am in the process or restoring one i wanted to find out from the masses how far is to far!? i am not starting with a bronco in nearly the condition that the 40th anniversary was in neither does it have all of the parts. so for my build i am left with:

1) do i spend 1 million dollars on rare nos parts (such as that shifter boot) on a bronco that is quite frankly not worth that much.

2) or can corners be cut not using 100% original ford parts or using not 100% date correct parts? (a rust free after-market hood is a whole lot easier to find then a rust free early 66 hood.)

the 40th anniversary bronco is a amazingly nice restoration!!!! im not trying to knock it or make a mockery of it! i just figured with a vehicle so close to perfect i did not think anyone would mind pointing a few things out that i noticed were not as good as the rest of it. the only way we can learn is by asking (i was not around when ANY year bronco was produced so i cant go off memory).

again drew, i mean no disrespect pointing out these items about your bronco i honestly never would have thought you would mind! and i would love to participate in a wrench and roast (and not with my magnifying glass! lol) my problem is i own two businesses and have little time left to work on my broncos own let alone someone else's!

 

[delconick]

im sorry "i was not arround when any year EARLY bronco was built" lol im not that young!

 

[Broncitis]

no, no no, not a hater! i guess the original reason for me posting this was overlooked!

fist off, drew, i offer my apologies and never intended to insult you in any way! in no way was this a poke at you or your fantastic work (which i mentioned) and if i thought that you would take any offense to this then i would have never posted it.

the purpose to this thread was simply for the pursuit of knowledge. (just as a bronco could be bought without a wiper system is new to me). because i am in the process or restoring one i wanted to find out from the masses how far is to far!? i am not starting with a bronco in nearly the condition that the 40th anniversary was in neither does it have all of the parts. so for my build i am left with:

1) do i spend 1 million dollars on rare nos parts (such as that shifter boot) on a bronco that is quite frankly not worth that much.

2) or can corners be cut not using 100% original ford parts or using not 100% date correct parts? (a rust free after-market hood is a whole lot easier to find then a rust free early 66 hood.)

the 40th anniversary bronco is a amazingly nice restoration!!!! im not trying to knock it or make a mockery of it! i just figured with a vehicle so close to perfect i did not think anyone would mind pointing a few things out that i noticed were not as good as the rest of it. the only way we can learn is by asking (i was not around when ANY year bronco was produced so i cant go off memory).

again drew, i mean no disrespect pointing out these items about your bronco i honestly never would have thought you would mind! and i would love to participate in a wrench and roast (and not with my magnifying glass! lol) my problem is i own two businesses and have little time left to work on my broncos own let alone someone else's!

No, it was not overlooked, I just did not see much of a real question on that entire post that really related to the title.

At the minimum then I think the title of you post should have then been "how far is far enough" since you did not point out any that were too far which would at a minimum be truly perfect or actually one that is over restored.

Your actual question of "HOW PERFECT IS TOO PERFECT?" is a bit odd since your main example of ours is obviously not perfect enough with the enumerated list of discrepancies that would prevent it from such a status.

IMO, having a nice clean, well done, thoroughly restored Bronco that very closely resembles how it left the dealer is more than enough to have a Bronco that will stand apart from many others. Broncos will likely never reach the type of judging needed for a Bloomington Gold as is done for Corvettes. This would have to be established and judged by fellow Bronco experts and I do not see the interest level or volume of activity needed for such an organization anytime in the near future.

Starting with a solid, nearly complete and unmolested platform is the best option and well worth the extra investment in $ upfront. Otherwise it will cost you many times that in searching and buying hard to find used or NOS parts, labor in replacement of sheet metal, etc.

Also, the washer delete dash does not have a hole for the early push button swtich.

 

[BoCoMo]

Me personally..I don't think I'd ever put over ~$25K into restoring one..unless I planned on keeping it until I perish. I say that simply because you'll have a He--uva time EVER getting your $$$ back out of an EB.. unlike SOME muscle-cars where you could stand to actually make a profit/break-even on the years of hard work & thousands of $$$ invested.

http://www.barrett-jackson.com/application/onlinesubmission/lotdetails.aspx?ln=335.1&aid=363

 

[BluebroncoNC]

This thread is full of wow.

My opinion to the OP after his clarification is, fix the truck up to the desire you see fit. Don't worry about the rest of us. One day we may put up a comment on your vehicle about something we don't like <shrugs>, but in the end you have to be happy with the knowledge you did it your way.

Come here often and ask opinions if you want, we'd be happy to share them with you. However ultimately its all about you and your truck.

As for the 40th anniversary, signed hood, Broncitis Bronco, dude, I have a partially restored, '77, modified slightly, I would happily trade you straight up, but only if you toss in the stock hood >grins<.

 

[Broncitis]

As for the 40th anniversary, signed hood, Broncitis Bronco, dude, I have a partially restored, '77, modified slightly, I would happily trade you straight up, but only if you toss in the stock hood >grins<.

OK, but I can not include the padded crate it is in. That took us a couple hours to custom build and mount the hinges to. ;D

 

[broncnaz]

While I guess some people go for the concurs restoration I would guess it would also be mostly for shows and not for useage. I say do the best you can with what parts you can get make it yours the way you want it and be happy with it.
I think with almost any vehicle no matter how well its restored someone could find fault with it. If your trying for concurs correct then your really open to scrutiny. I think a lot of people are more happy with a good restoration that mimics stock as much as possible and dont worry about being 100% concurs.
Basically you are the only one that you have to please so which way you go is up to you.

A lot of the vehicles at BJ auctions bring more money than they are worth all it means is they are marketed to a crowd that doesnt know any better that 74 in the link has multipule non correct features. nice restoration and hard to say if any money was actually made on it.

 

[chuck]

You might be right, I am only going by the meaning of the word and know nothing of the judging and don't care a lot. Your EB is very nice, that is good enough for me.

I'm thinking this may not be correct.

 

[mavman427]

I personally could care less what type of hose clamp somebody uses on their restoration. Some people love to have everything original, but personally I don't see the appeal of that. EB's are 35+ years old and the vast majority of them have rust, modifications, etc. Also, there have been massive improvements in automobile technology over this time. So, replacing worn out/broken/missing components with original factory stuff doesn't make sense and isn't practical in a lot of cases.

Calling somebody out on their build for the type of hose clamp they use is petty and doesn't serve any purpose in my opinion. The reason the majority of us have this hobby is that we enjoy working on, modifying, and driving our rigs. Getting caught up comparing build to build and publicly critiquing other people's builds doesn't do anything to make the hobby more enjoyable and only detracts from it in my opinion.

 

[Broncoloupy]

With the amount of time/money/love/pride/blood/sweat/tears that goes into any build, it is simply ignorant to start off this thread the way you did Nick! The whole Peroni family has a lot more invested in this community than you can imagine....let alone the 66. I will chalk your opening to this thread to being young and ignorant. No matter what your intentions were the way you flawed the build that I was witness to, over the course of several years with a Father/Son team pouring their heart and soul into it cannot be classified as anything other than RUDE. Screw your intentions when posting, you need to think about what people have invested before talking negatively about their work.
Now I am done. I will buy all your beer @ the Wrench and Roast should you decide to join us....;D

 

[NGABronco]

With the amount of time/money/love/pride/blood/sweat/tears that goes into any build, it is simply ignorant to start off this thread the way you did Nick! The whole Peroni family has a lot more invested in this community than you can imagine....let alone the 66. I will chalk your opening to this thread to being young and ignorant. No matter what your intentions were the way you flawed the build that I was witness to, over the course of several years with a Father/Son team pouring their heart and soul into it cannot be classified as anything other than RUDE. Screw your intentions when posting, you need to think about what people have invested before talking negatively about their work.
Now I am done. I will buy all your beer @ the Wrench and Roast should you decide to join us....;D

Very well stated Lou, you expressed my thoughts as well!!! Heck I thought you only power/ground off drive shafts on big rocks, I just wasn't aware that you were verbally empowered as well!!!!;D;D;D