• Just a reminder that you won't be able to start new posts or reply to existings posts in the Archive forum.

    This is where all the old posts go so they can still be used for reference and searched.
  • Welcome to ClassicBroncos! - You are currently viewing the forums as a GUEST. To take advantage of all the site features, please take a moment to register. It's fast, simple and absolutely free. So please join our community today!
    If you have problems registering or can't log into your account, please contact Admin.

How far is far enough on a restoration? Is concourse too far?

OP
OP
delconick

delconick

Sr. Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2009
Messages
874
wow....... well i was not thinking this post was going to actually make people upset!

first off drew your probably right i think i did miss word the title to this thread.

now to save my good name in the bronco community and not have you all hit me over the head with a bat if i did decide to join a wrench and roast ;) i will apologize again for bringing up a specific bronco.

critiquing is something that you have to expect on any type of factory accurate restoration! no matter if i mention a flaw to the guy standing next to me at a show or a few hundred guys on a bronco site the reason for the mention has the same motive; did he know? or is that the best that was available? or in the case of the washer system "wow i did not know that" (see i learned something from this thread!) . im not bashing im making more knowledge available for myself and the next guy! i guess i may have worded it wrong? i did grow up in a garage. lol.

critiquing makes all nice cars nicer and other people aware that people actually do care that much about a specific vehicle! there would be no concourse shows otherwise!!!

sorry again drew i owe you a beer and a handshake when we meet.
 

casadejohnson

Bronco Alchemist
Joined
Jan 21, 2005
Messages
3,587
I'm glad some guys take the time and spend the big bucks to make their restoration "correct". Its nice to know someone has researched and documented the history of a vehicle. Personally, I want a car I can drive! If I won the lottery and had money to burn, I would go down to Barrett Jackson and buy a Shelby with 4 miles on it and drive that bitch home!
 

Dave71

New Member
Joined
Nov 10, 2009
Messages
96
Loc.
Nomadic!
wow....... I was not thinking!


^^^Fixed it for you^^^;)

I can not see how anyone could seriously not think that an unsolicited critique such as that in a forum such as this (where the owner is known to be active) would be viewed as anything constructive or positive.?:?

On the same level as attending a wedding and then sending out an email to all the guests saying:

"Had a great time, nice wedding overall, but the brides dress made her back fat bulge like a plumped up ball park frank! :eek: The food at the reception sounded good on RSVP selection card, but was some of the worst I have had at a wedding. Bland, cold, and served late :mad:. The reception was made worth it however when the brides hot sister got so drunk she started flashing us before she threw up and passed out in the parking lot! Had a great time, thanks for the invite, I look forward to your next one when this one crashes and burns!"

All I could think when I read the original post was WTF were you thinking?%)

There may have been a legit question or desire for dialog as the motivation, but I have to give you a FAIL in the execution. I will give you credit since you seem to realize that now however.

I have not had the chance to see their Bronco in person, but have seen many pics which looked very nice to me. Nick, what do YOU have to show that YOU have built so far (Bronco or not) so we can see your handy work?

There are many ways to learn from each other, and I think your original post can be a fine example of how NOT to go about it.

BTW, mentioning flaws to some guy standing next to you at a car show is also poor etiquette. Quietly and discretely to your buddy is one thing, but outside of that very low class IMO. It falls under something many of our mothers used to tell us...If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. :-X

I go to car, bike and tractor shows to admire others work, get ideas and inspiration, and to share the camaraderie of the hobby, NOT to criticize or critique others publicly. Sure, I have seen lots of flaws, hack jobs, ugly (to me) paint, mods, etc. But that is my opinion and the owner who took the time to do it must have liked it (although I do sometimes wonder how!:eek:). I think many of these things, but certainly would never stand around telling people who walk by these things let alone post them in an itemized list in a forum within the community.

As for your good name in the community. I have never really heard of you or seen you contribute much other than seeing you selling alot of stuff on here, but I do hope to see and learn more of what you have in the works.
 

66Bronco

Sr. Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2001
Messages
845
i am an avid bronco nut and know quite a bit about these trucks especially the early build 1966 models. with that being said i have been collecting NOS parts and the occasional bits of knowledge that i didn't already know for a 1966 roadster restoration that i am working on. i was planning on a concourse restoration being as close to factory as possible but the more i look at other high quality restorations they are not that way.... in some cases not even close!

so my question is: HOW PERFECT IS TOO PERFECT?

This is one of those topics that brings out a flood of thoughts and I struggle to try to summarize them.

With regard to a '66 Bronco Roadster, I believe a "perfect" concourse vehicle would be one that just rolled out of the Factory. Unfortunately things can start to get cloudy pretty quick after the Bronco left the factory due to a large number Dealer installed accessories. Other influences on perfection arise due to the Bronco being a vehicle ripe for modification (as opposed to a regular car like a Mustang). After all the Bronco was designed to be a both a work and recreation vehicle.

Of course your restoration can put things back the way they were but the line of what is and is not considered "correct" often very gray with a wide difference of opinion.

In my opinion just having a pile of NOS parts won't necessarily result in a "perfect" restoration. Ford often made changes to the Bronco parts over the years w/out changing the part number. Your C6TZ part may be correct but the part in the box may not be an exact copy of the part that was on the Bronco when it left the factory. Also, something I've experienced quite a few times, is that the part in the NOS Ford part box may not actually be the one that was in the box originally. Then there's the challenge of actually being able to find the part. I can think of a few parts on the '66 Bronco that would be darn near impossible to find these days. Plus it only gets harder as the years go by.

Being able to determine what is "correct" is often difficult too. Forums such as this have resulted in big steps forward in helping to be able to identify what parts are correct parts. This is mostly done by looking for commonality amongst several '66 Bronco. Actual Ford documentation is lacking and sometimes can actually be misleading. One that comes to mind is the Ford press release photo of Donald Fey standing in front of a '66 Bronco w/ a 289 and a 6 cylinder radiator and a car type air cleaner. Obviously just a prototype.

I bring these items up to possibly shed some light on things I went through with my own restoration.

I would encourage you to go for it and keep us informed of your progress.


-Terry
 

ccbronco

Jr. Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
214
I can see how feathers were ruffled her after reading the whole thread. I commented earlier because I have been restoring a 67. I fount the title to be the hook that drew me in to the discussion. As with the wealth of knowledge there is to be found on this site, I have found out even more than I knew before starting to read this thread. I agree with both camps. I am enjoying the banter of what makes up a concourse Bronco. I appreciate the subject being brought up. I feel the author stepped on his Johnson a bit, but think the blowback has been a little over the top. As someone who is about to apply paint to his Luber, all this helps me;D.
 

pierr

Full Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2009
Messages
434
Loc.
Gordon,GA

Yep..and "even a blind pig finds an acorn..every now & then;)". Broncnaz summed it up well in his post following yours,BoCoMo. Hell,look at the copper Ranger TML has in the classifieds..I don't know him from Adam..but I'm willing to bet a crispy $100 bill that he has a bit more than the asking price in it..& look at the shit folks are giving him:mad:. Ignorance of what it takes ($$$ wise,not to mention the time,bloody knuckles,sweat,etc) to get one of these old trucks into that condition is rampant(especially to the condition of the Peroni's trucks). I stand by my previous post..build an EB into what you want,but don't plan on EVERYBODY liking it,nor getting ALL of your $$$ back out of it..only a few lucky do these days,IMO. And furthermore..I have never seen a restoration that didn't have faults..if you dig deep enough;). Pierr.
 
OP
OP
delconick

delconick

Sr. Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2009
Messages
874
true, true, most if not all restorations have faults, maybe in the body or the paint or even the lack of over sprayed undercoating or just too nice of a paint job as happens most commonly and was brought up earlier. i would never criticize those faults because even my own build will have those too! no fun in building a vehicle and never driving it!

im basically saying if you spend the extra time to hunt down or have a specific decal made because the re produced ones are not the right size or color then putting a part that does not belong on the vehicle doesn't make much sense. its like you only did 90%. which is my original question, is 90% enough? is 100% not practical due to cost or lack of available parts?

as for what parts came on a 66 i defiantly know there is a huge gray area! what i would like to know is what are the most common rear view mirror found on early produced 66's? hose clamps? they are two that are baffling me because it seems there are several? did they really just trow anything they had on it? lol. likely i guess?

still blown away by washer delete! why? doesn't make any sense? who in the hell would even bother asking for that!? kinda funny.
 
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
33
Loc.
Missouri
Yep..and "even a blind pig finds an acorn..every now & then;)". Broncnaz summed it up well in his post following yours,BoCoMo. Hell,look at the copper Ranger TML has in the classifieds..I don't know him from Adam..but I'm willing to bet a crispy $100 bill that he has a bit more than the asking price in it..& look at the shit folks are giving him:mad:. Ignorance of what it takes ($$$ wise,not to mention the time,bloody knuckles,sweat,etc) to get one of these old trucks into that condition is rampant(especially to the condition of the Peroni's trucks). I stand by my previous post..build an EB into what you want,but don't plan on EVERYBODY liking it,nor getting ALL of your $$$ back out of it..only a few lucky do these days,IMO. And furthermore..I have never seen a restoration that didn't have faults..if you dig deep enough;). Pierr.

No argument here! ;)
 

Gas Pig

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Oct 19, 2005
Messages
2,740
After reading through most of the posts on this thread truth be told just as Terry said it, "perfect concourse vehicle is one that rolled out of the factory."

Even with that the early 66's were so hard pin down as what was right when it was made! Ford changed the 66 Bronco as they went from month to month in Aug 65 all the way through mid 66. I'm not sure if it was refining and/or lack of parts do to shortages of suppliers. As I built my 66 Roadster I wanted to build the best "concourse" truck I can build. So, purposely strip downed 4 complete 66's (early Aug. 65 through Oct 65) Broncos in search parts and research. EVERYONE WAS DIFFERENT FROM FACTORY!!!! That's not to mention the all 66's are very different 67's on up. There is not a judge in the auto world who could accurately judge a 66! I bet there are less then a dozen people who really know all 66's quirks. So how can there be a true concourse judging of a Bronco???

The main reason for this there is NO documentation on variations (unlike other make and model classic cars). Also there is very little to no standards on restoration for Broncos. Slowing the "correct restoration" of a Bronco is making some headway do to guys like you wanting to do things right. Also Bronco owners must demanding to have accurate reproduction parts if NOS one can't be found. I'm not knocking ANY Bronco shop because we need all of them! The world of Broncos covers a very wide range of types of Broncos (concourse to world class rock crawler). JBG is making a real push for correct reproduction parts for guys like you and me and I greatly appreciated! After I burned up all my NOS parts stash on my first 66 build. I'd be hard pressed (if not impossible) to do it again for my next build. I spent more then a 1000 hrs. just parts hunting on my build!

Just remember if your going to do it do it right and don't have any regrets. Also make sure you take good documentation of your build. Don't hesitate ask as many questions. The Bronco gurus on this site, are a great help!

I feel the Bronco community needs to show a real presence at car shows and really needs to educate the classic auto world! Then slowly we'll move closer having standards in our restored Broncos. Until then we must police ourselves by setting high goals and helping each other out with our builds.

"Build it and they will come.";)

PS I have a true 66 washer delete hood. I have only seen a couple out there!
 

broncnaz

Bronco Guru
Joined
May 22, 2003
Messages
24,341
im basically saying if you spend the extra time to hunt down or have a specific decal made because the re produced ones are not the right size or color then putting a part that does not belong on the vehicle doesn't make much sense. its like you only did 90%. which is my original question, is 90% enough? is 100% not practical due to cost or lack of available parts?

as for what parts came on a 66 i defiantly know there is a huge gray area! what i would like to know is what are the most common rear view mirror found on early produced 66's? hose clamps? they are two that are baffling me because it seems there are several? did they really just trow anything they had on it? lol. likely i guess?

still blown away by washer delete! why? doesn't make any sense? who in the hell would even bother asking for that!? kinda funny.

Its all up to you if you want to be 100% orginal thats fine some of us wont spend the big $$ for that exact part take the t case shifter boot for example why would you pay that much for one. Just like a few years back people were selling 66 roadster mirrors for $400 a piece why because someone paid it because they had to have them 99% of us wouldnt pay that.
66 is one of the most grey areas for broncos but really take any part that was put on mustangs and falcons for that year and you can apply it to a bronco for being correct as that was what was coming out of the factory now of course some parts have casting numbers so those wouldnt be concurs in all cases.
As for a washer delete well if you bought a roadster you wouldnt really need windsheild washers figure you probably wouldnt drive it in the rain much and you were expected to possibly fold the windshield down so washers wouldnt be a major concern. if your buying a base model or stripped down vehicle and were thinking cheap well you might ask for the washer delete why pay the extra $10. As for rear view mirror hard to say all the early pictures I've seen of 66's I didnt see a rear view mirrow so really once you find one that is supposed to be stock then I'd go with one like that since its a grey area and you dont have one you have leeway. Will someone take exception to it maybe but who really cares if that mirroe was availible in 66 then its as correct as it can be.
 

Broncitis

MEB Founder
Joined
May 18, 2004
Messages
5,267
Will someone take exception to it maybe but who really cares if that mirroe was availible in 66 then its as correct as it can be.

That just made me think about the "incorrect" rear view mirror on our 66. Since it was owned by the dealer from 1965 through the mid-80's, it is likely that is could be a "Dealer Installed Option"! ;D

I will have to look at the pic the owners son sent us to see if it is visible.
 

broncnaz

Bronco Guru
Joined
May 22, 2003
Messages
24,341
Yeah I was going to mention the dealer option scenario. Some places or dealers may have either required or just installed mirrors that could be anything from OEM ford to aftermarket
 
OP
OP
delconick

delconick

Sr. Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2009
Messages
874
thats a good point about the mirror being dealer installed drew, i was thinking maybe that was the case seeing how your truck never actually left the dealer?

i was looking through all kinds of original sales brochures and not one picture even shows a rear view mirror but looking in the bob osborne assembly manual it shows a windshield mounted mirror.

heck, in a couple test drive articles from 1965 it shows a wagon with 2 roadster mirrors! i guess anything goes?

lol, this is going to be a fun project!

did all broncos manufactured in 66 have a floor mat or was that an option?

i need to find an original option sheet..... anyone?
 

Broncitis

MEB Founder
Joined
May 18, 2004
Messages
5,267
This video of a 66 comercial which was recently posted also shows a wagon with roadster mirrors. It also shows color matched bumpers on the yellow Bronco which I have never seen any with color matched.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evIn1HqQZSI

In my experience, the early production models had tons of oddities such as these, so it is very hard to determine some of these things.

I would not put too much stock into the Osbourne book. As I recall, it also shows things like front and rear shoulder seat belts and some other items that never saw production.

I think all had floor mats, but am not 100% certain. Our U13 is pretty basic (although it does have the chrome bumpers versus painted ones) and it had a floor mat. The original was not too bad compared to most since it was a very low mile, well cared for truck overall, but we did find and use a good NOS one for it and also have one for the 67 289 U14 we are doing now.
 

Broncitis

MEB Founder
Joined
May 18, 2004
Messages
5,267
Is anyone making the floor mat?


Not yet that I know of. There has been some threads about the need for them on here recently.

There are at least 3 versions of these as well.

A friend of mine is in need of a F&R for his '77 that is almost complete and had to go with carpet until one turns up or is reproduced since the last one we found was brittle and cracking form age and could not be used for a driver.
 

Bay0726

Full Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Messages
491
Loc.
Woodstock GA
Nick,

I have not yet met you or had a chance to discuss or show you our Broncos in detail and will try not to take offense to your unsolicited critique in a public forum. I would have been glad to address each of your points in an email or PM.%)

However, I will still address your questions and give you a bit more info on this Bronco since you seem so interested in it:

This Bronco was purchased with less than 10K original miles from the second owner who lived in Montana. He purchased it from a Ford dealer which owned it since new until they went out of business in the mid 80's. This was not a rotted out Bronco pieced together with every reproduction or NOS piece we could find. There was not a single piece of sheetmetal replaced in it (including inner fender aprons).

We did not have countless hours tracking down parts because 98% of them were there when we got it and as we showed it for a few years prior to the body-off.

Last year the son of the owner of the dealership tracked us down though Tim's website and sent us a vintage picture of it with the plow. He told us he learned to drive in this Bronco.

The Bronco is currently stored at a friends shop so I can not go out to look at each item so this will be from memory:

1) As Scoop pointed out, the 40th hood is a spare I had in my parts pile that we did just for the 40th event. We did not want to apply the graphics to the original which was repainted during the restoration and lives in a crate in the rafters of my shop. We did not intend to leave the 40th hood on and never initially intended to get all the signatures of the Baja legends and Edsel Ford II and Henry Ford III on it. The Baja legend signatures was a last minute thought on the drive out to the 40th events in Victorville ,CA. Since it is now so unique, we decided to keep it on there and have run it through all the AACA judging with it and even had a few points deducted for it by one judge, but not enough to hurt us in getting its Grand National award.

2)I thought the tailgate was an early one as I recall with the different body line than later years but I'd have to verify it. It is the one that came with the Bronco to us.

3)This mirror was also installed when we got it, so we left it as is.

4)The original clamps that came on it were tower style (and a few modern worm drive that were replaced at some point) and we bought reproduction tower style based on that. Page 6 of the 68 sales brochure appears to show some tower style clamps (66 1st or 2nd printing does not have detailed illustrations or photos and the angle of the images in the 67 brochure do not show them).

5)This Bronco had a windshield wiper delete option as I have seen on a couple others. No holes in the original hood for nozzles or in the inner fender for the bag bracket. You can chock that up as one of your occasional bits of knowledge since I guess you were unaware of this option? It also has the optional RH roadster mirror option and is marked "RH MIR" on the original buck tag that is still wired to the firewall.

6)45 year old original webbing will tend to have a little fade to it, but I have not had too much better than these that I can recall from any of the 40-50 Broncos we have had, especially early ones.

7)Yep, 45 year old rubber is like that. My Dad has had an order in with Tim for one of his repros as I recall.

8)Again, yes, old rubber is hard to keep from showing age. We found an NOS one, but for the $450 he wanted on what could easily end up being a piece of rubber that will split and crack due to age, we passed. If it were a hard part it would be worth it to us, but not on soft goods like that. For that coin, I'd rather invest in having them reproduced myself. I started looking into that, but it is only one of many irons in the fire for me and not a real priority at this point since we already have already received the highest award level AACA has to offer.

Yes, the list is longer, but I'm not telling you :-X You will have to find them on your own.;D

We have never claimed it to be perfect the magazine did. I know there are a few items that may not be correct or some flaws in the paint / body, etc. However, it is ours and we are 100% happy with it and it has allowed us to go to some great places and meet people and do things we could have never done otherwise.

BTW, for the record, the 77 Ranger is not "perfect" either. Damn nice if I do say so myself, but certainly not perfect by any means. Same with the Stroppe ambulance Ballon Chaser. Not even close to being perfect, but our most prized addition yet.

I can guarantee you that I can find imperfections and flaws in just about restoration (especially Broncos). A couple of the other notable ones out there have some much more significant flaws than what you have pointed out, but I would never post that in a public forum (and would not likely even mention them to the owners unless asked or discussing the detail level of such things).

Good luck with your project. I am very much looking forward to seeing it....VERY CLOSELY. ;D

We will likely have the U13, Ranger and Ambulance down at my place next month for the MEB Wrench & Roast. If you would like to attend to help wrench you are more than welcome to to bring your flashlight and magnifying glass. %)

I agree with Broncitis, what gives you the right to scrutinize his Bronco? Go finish yours and then have someone pick it apart and see how it feels. It sounds like you are jealous and kinda makes you seem like a jerk.
 

Broncitis

MEB Founder
Joined
May 18, 2004
Messages
5,267
Nick, I ran across this old post when I was doing a search to find a link to online scans of original dealers sales brochures to send to another member.

Just wondering how your restoration is progressing. I am looking forward to seeing it up close and in person. Any updates?

Our latest was supposed to be done this past Spring, but we had several issues that causes some setbacks and delays, so we missed this show season completely. It will certainly be ready for next year however.

If you still need a NOS radio kit, we have one available with the speaker, antenna, hardware, instructions, etc., as well as 66 hubcaps and some other parts you were looking for.
 
Last edited:
Top