How many use SAE 30 motor oil??

[Timmy390]

I understand about the WiKi

While I can't find a specific PDF on the Rotella Joe Gibbs Racing seems to have the same info (more indepth) on their Driven Oil site.

Back in August of 2005 (less than a year after API SM was introduced), the Society of Tribologists and Lubrication Engineers published a story stating that calcium-based detergents and dispersants competed against the ZDDP for surface space, and that caused some wear issues in passenger car engines. Around this same time many engine builders began to experience a rash of flat tappet cam failures during break-in.

The level of ZDDP had also been reduced in the API SM oil spec, and along with the increased use of calcium detergents and dispersants, the critical balance had shifted. The results were nearly catastrophic for independent engine builders and camshaft manufacturers. The rate of flat tappet cam failures escalated at an alarming rate.

The decrease in ZDDP from 1,000 ppm down to 800 ppm was called out as the cause for the rash of cam failures. This failed to take into account the change in ZDDP to detergent balance. Many engine builders switched to diesel oils that contained higher levels of ZDDP, and that worked sufficiently until the diesel oils underwent a reduction in ZDDP down to 1,200 ppm in October of 2006. By the end of 2007, engine builders were again on hunt for a higher Zinc solution. This time, many switched to properly formulated break-in oils high in ZDDP and low in detergent. Some still held onto the diesel oils, but also added an off-the-shelf ZDDP supplement.

http://www.drivenracingoil.com/news/dro/training-center/articles/zinc-in-motor-oil/

Tim

 

[Timmy390]

Found this.....from the Petroleum Quality Institute of America

http://www.pqiamerica.com/May 2013/rotella.htm

Tim

 

[blubuckaroo]

I understand about the WiKi

While I can't find a specific PDF on the Rotella Joe Gibbs Racing seems to have the same info (more indepth) on their Driven Oil site.

Back in August of 2005 (less than a year after API SM was introduced), the Society of Tribologists and Lubrication Engineers published a story stating that calcium-based detergents and dispersants competed against the ZDDP for surface space, and that caused some wear issues in passenger car engines. Around this same time many engine builders began to experience a rash of flat tappet cam failures during break-in.

The level of ZDDP had also been reduced in the API SM oil spec, and along with the increased use of calcium detergents and dispersants, the critical balance had shifted. The results were nearly catastrophic for independent engine builders and camshaft manufacturers. The rate of flat tappet cam failures escalated at an alarming rate.

The decrease in ZDDP from 1,000 ppm down to 800 ppm was called out as the cause for the rash of cam failures. This failed to take into account the change in ZDDP to detergent balance. Many engine builders switched to diesel oils that contained higher levels of ZDDP, and that worked sufficiently until the diesel oils underwent a reduction in ZDDP down to 1,200 ppm in October of 2006. By the end of 2007, engine builders were again on hunt for a higher Zinc solution. This time, many switched to properly formulated break-in oils high in ZDDP and low in detergent. Some still held onto the diesel oils, but also added an off-the-shelf ZDDP supplement.

http://www.drivenracingoil.com/news/dro/training-center/articles/zinc-in-motor-oil/

Tim

I had a cam fail during break in at that time period too. Wiped out two lobes in 20 minutes!
I had bought the cam & lifters from Edelbrock. It came with the required break-in procedures but no mention of special break-in oil needed.
Edelbrock sent me a new cam & lifters, and this time there was a bottle of break in oil additive, along with amended instructions.
Those instructions also mentioned that zinc rich oil would be needed for life.

Now, I always add a bottle of the Comp Cams break-in additive when changing oil. The problem is, like this article states, the zinc and detergent compete, and so the oil needs to be changed more frequently.
Actually, I feel that's the case for a carbed engine anyway.

 

[ntsqd]

I don't think that the cam going flat during break-in can be exclusively laid on the new oil's doorstep. There are too many other factors involved.

I've been running Delo 15w-40 in everything, diesel, EFI, & carb'd gassers. No oil related issues of any sort in 5+ years. At first when it was changed to the later Spec I was concerned, but while I don't do an oil analysis on every oil change I'm not seeing any other changes either.

All I'm really saying is: don't buy into the "low ZDDP = Bad" mania without looking into it further on lubrication specific forums and sources. And as the pdf linked above mentions, apparently too much ZDDP can be just as bad as too little without appropriate changes to compensate.

 

[bronconut73]

I remember reading a few years back....Maybe more than a few years...Lol...That too much zinc in oil could be bad but that "bad" had something to do with catylitic converters....Somehow might foul them...
I do recall failing cats being a common issue 20 or so years ago but not so much anymore...But I'm old and alot of my knowledge is old...Pay close attention to ntsqd, he has new knowledge and the links to back it up.

 

[ntsqd]

No, the pdf mentions that too much zinc can cause spalling of the cam and lifters.

 

[bronconut73]

I just copy and pasted some stuff from NTSQD's PDF.


The question concerns the reduction of zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP) in API-SM rated
motor oils, the standard for oils used in gasoline passenger-car engines today. The
concentration of ZDDP in such oils has varied through the years in response to the needs of
changing engine technology. In 2004, however, the US government mandated 120,000 mile
lifetimes for catalytic converters, and since phosphorous contaminated them, the phosphorous
content of oil had to be reduced. Thus, modern API-SM oils have reduced levels of ZDDP, to
a greater or lesser degree. Zinc content is usually used as a measure of ZDDP content, although
phosphorous is really the critical element. Phosphorous levels are typically 75% to 90% of the
zinc concentration. The zinc concentration is often given in parts per million by weight (PPM);
1000 PPM is 0.1%. Maximum zinc content today is rarely more than 0.08% (800 PPM),
compared to approximately 0.12% (1200 PPM) previously. Some modern oils have
considerably less. In general, however, this is not a dramatic reduction.
The greatest concern is for camshaft wear in flat-tappet engines, especially those having high
tappet pressure at the camshaft. Especially when they are new, the mating surfaces have
microscopic high points that can interfere and “cold weld” under high pressure. These then
break loose, creating even more microscopic roughness, and the process continues until
measurable wear occurs. By creating a sacrificial layer that coats these high points and
prevents microscopic high-pressure regions that lead to galling, ZDDP prevents this process
from occurring. Modern engines have redesigned lifters that minimize this so-called scuffing
action, so their need for ZDDP is much less.
A central implication of the “Oil is Killing Our Engines” article is that the ZDDP
concentration was recklessly reduced with no concern for the needs of older cars. This is just
not credible. In any technical field, concern for backward compatibility is absolutely in the
forefront when such changes are made. Invariably, the goal is not simply to meet the new
requirements, but to do so without creating new problems. In this case, the goal was to extend
catalytic converter lifetime without affecting the huge number of older cars currently in use.

 

[ntsqd]

Yeah, but you missed the part about the spalling. Clearly the reduction happened because of cat converter life-spans, that is well known and accepted as the cause for all of this.

 

[bronconut73]

What about proprietary additives such as Royal Purple's Synerlec?
Does it provide a good substitute for ZDDP?
Or is there just no substitute for us flat tappet guys?

I would and will run a roller cam one day. I like a full roller valve train. With all other specs the same they tend to sneak more HP/torque under the curve. Free efficient power, the best kind.

 

[bronconut73]

Yeah, but you missed the part about the spalling. Clearly the reduction happened because of cat converter life-spans, that is well known and accepted as the cause for all of this.

Yes but I was supporting your point about the oil companies not abandoning older engines with newer oil technology.
It sounds as though what your saying is these newer oils are fine for flat tappet perhaps except at break in.
There are available break in oils that seem to be more available than they were years ago, or at least they are marketed better, haha.

 

[Timmy390]

I think this sums it up.....well it does to me. Older stock engines can get by with the newer oils.....but once you start upgrading.....I'm running big cams in both Bronco and Mach 1

When you start making performance modifications or begin racing, everything changes.

Higher lift cams with longer durations and greater spring pressures need a faster response from the Zinc. Oil development in race engines shows that faster acting ZDTP does a better job protecting highly loaded valve trains. Basically, the Zinc package needs to be optimized for the application, and this is where the confusion happens.

Many people have had good success with premium API licensed products in stock engine applications (as well they should). However, this can create a false perception that API licensed oils should work in every application, but this is simply not the case. When you go beyond normal valve lift, operating temperatures and cylinder pressures, the oil formula needs to adapt to these “new” requirements.

Because the modifications fall outside the OEM guidelines used by the API to determine oil performance specifications, an API performance level does not apply.

Tim

 

[ntsqd]

Yes but I was supporting your point about the oil companies not abandoning older engines with newer oil technology.
It sounds as though what your saying is these newer oils are fine for flat tappet perhaps except at break in.
There are available break in oils that seem to be more available than they were years ago, or at least they are marketed better, haha.

True, found the section on too much:

In December, 2007, the publication GM Techlink, distributed to GM dealers, contained an article by a GM lubrication guru, Bob Olree, of the GM Powertrain Fuels and Lubricants Group. As well as debunking certain other erroneous ideas about oil, he addresses the ZDDP question in detail. In that article, he flatly calls the concern about ZDDP a “myth,” citing the extensive testing of modern oils for scuff resistance. One paragraph is especially worth
repeating here:
A higher level of ZDDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, but it turned out that more was not better. Although break-in scuffing was reduced by using more phosphorus, longer-term wear increased when
phosphorus rose above 0.14%. And, at about 0.20% phosphorus, the ZDDP
started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling.
So, more is not necessarily better. It’s a good idea to keep this in mind before using high-ZDDP racing oil, diesel oil, or any other additives in a street engine.


Cam break-in with a cam-in-block engine is the exceptional case. Then the cam mfg's recommended break-in lubricant should be used and applied as they specify.

I never use additives. It's all marketing. I know some swear by brand X stuff. Fine for them, not for me. I figure that the chemists behind any particular oil's set of additives are smarter than me and knew what they were doing. My adding an additive to that combination may just upset the whole thing and push in a direction that does damage rather than good. This section underscores my thinking on additives:
Additives
For ordinary use, oils simply do not need additional additives. Even the most ordinary motor
oils have large amounts of additives as delivered, in concentrations chosen after considerable,
sophisticated testing and research. In fact, additional additives can be detrimental; there are
lots of horror stories of additives damaging engines, and the FTC has occasionally come down
hard on oil-additive marketers. Whenever you see a claim that some additive (or any other
substance, for that matter) has only positive effects and no downside, your BS detector should
sound an ear-piercing alarm.

Timmy brings up a good point in that a serious performance engine makes demands on it's oil that exceeds normal street use oil's ability to deliver. In those cases I would say to use an appropriate oil from one of the brand name synthetics or Swepco.

 

[bronconut73]

I think this sums it up.....well it does to me. Older stock engines can get by with the newer oils.....but once you start upgrading.....I'm running big cams in both Bronco and Mach 1

When you start making performance modifications or begin racing, everything changes.

Higher lift cams with longer durations and greater spring pressures need a faster response from the Zinc. Oil development in race engines shows that faster acting ZDTP does a better job protecting highly loaded valve trains. Basically, the Zinc package needs to be optimized for the application, and this is where the confusion happens.

Many people have had good success with premium API licensed products in stock engine applications (as well they should). However, this can create a false perception that API licensed oils should work in every application, but this is simply not the case. When you go beyond normal valve lift, operating temperatures and cylinder pressures, the oil formula needs to adapt to these “new” requirements.

Because the modifications fall outside the OEM guidelines used by the API to determine oil performance specifications, an API performance level does not apply.

Tim

Yup........

 

[blubuckaroo]

Even back in the days of high zinc oils, GM included a can of EOS (engine oil supplement) with every new engine. It was included as a break in additive.

Myself? I'll continue to use the additive and change oil often, since my cam lift and valve spring pressure are higher than factory specs.

 

[ledslinger29]

This is a great thread gents. Thank you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Mill KNOB]

Thanks again for everyone's input. I have went and changed the oil to 15-40 rotella. See how my little sewing machine runs.