I got screwed - need advice - UPDATE

[Steve]

UPDATE - See my post on page 2

Short story: I bought a complete drivetrain (Howell-injected 302, C4 and Atlas 4.3) from a guy, who assured me it ran well and had "low miles." It was already pulled out of his buggy, so I couldn't test it easily and I trusted him. It's all installed and I've been messing with it for a week just trying to get it to run. The EFI works, I've traced all wiring, installed a new coil and tested the Mallory distributor. I finally decided to replace the plugs as a last resort, and while the plugs were out I figured I'd get compression readings for future reference. Guess what? The highest is only 115 and the lowest is 85. The engine is completely shot.

Right now I'm so pissed I don't even want to look at it, but eventually I'll get the drivetrain pulled. Here's the options I have:

- Get the engine rebuilt (if possible; I don't want to bore it too much tho to prevent overheating issues)
- Get a new or rebuilt long block 302.
- Go with a good 351W that a friend has.

Questions:
- What would you do? (It's primarily a hard core trail rig that's trailered if it's very far and only driven around town occasionally.)
- Is the 351W an easy swap?
- Will my current bellhousing, flexplate and torque convertor bolt to a 351W or would I need different ones?
- Will my current PS pump/bracket bolt to the 351W or would I need a different one?

If I go with the 351W, I'd swap the Howell over to it which would be easy. Anything else I should be aware of to figure out which way to go?

TIA

Steve

 

[Bart]

Short story: I bought a complete drivetrain (Howell-injected 302, C4 and Atlas 4.3) from a guy, who assured me it ran well and had "low miles." It was already pulled out of his buggy, so I couldn't test it easily and I trusted him. It's all installed and I've been messing with it for a week just trying to get it to run. The EFI works, I've traced all wiring, installed a new coil and tested the Mallory distributor. I finally decided to replace the plugs as a last resort, and while the plugs were out I figured I'd get compression readings for future reference. Guess what? The highest is only 115 and the lowest is 85. The engine is completely shot.

Right now I'm so pissed I don't even want to look at it, but eventually I'll get the drivetrain pulled. Here's the options I have:

- Get the engine rebuilt (if possible; I don't want to bore it too much tho to prevent overheating issues)
- Get a new or rebuilt long block 302.
- Go with a good 351W that a friend has.

Questions:
- What would you do? (It's primarily a hard core trail rig that's trailered if it's very far and only driven around town occasionally.)
- Is the 351W an easy swap?
- Will my current bellhousing, flexplate and torque convertor bolt to a 351W or would I need different ones?
- Will my current PS pump/bracket bolt to the 351W or would I need a different one?

If I go with the 351W, I'd swap the Howell over to it which would be easy. Anything else I should be aware of to figure out which way to go?

TIA

Steve

Hello GJBman, I met you last year at Moab. I hope you'll be there this year.
Before you condemn the compression reading did you do a dry test and a wet test? First, since you only quoted one set of readings I'm not sure you did both. You may only have a bad valve job. Taking both readings should comfirm it one way or the other. I put a Windsor in my rig and love the torque. As I remember the flexi plate is the same (depending on the year of the Windsor) (pre '81 vs post 81) I THINK. The bell housing has the same bolt pattern. I did a one inch body lift and that helped line up everything and help with the 1 inch taller engine block. Let me know if you want/ need more information

 

[casadejohnson]

After killing the guy that sold this to you, I would go to the 351 W. I made the swap a number of years ago and I love it! I don't have an automatic but my bell housing and everything bolted up perfectly. I'm sure the auto does as well, I just have never done it. You can buy adaptors for your alternator and P/S pump so that your 302 stuff will bolt to the 351. Depending on whats on the 351, you will probably need a different oil pan/pump. Many of the 351's have a front sump so it needs to be swaped to the rear. Additionaly, your pan needs to be able to clear your front diff without hitting it while your wheeling. I got my pan from Ford racing, its the same one they use for swapping 351's into fox body mustangs. I'm sure you know that the 351 intake is wider than the 302 so if you don't have an intake, you have that to consider. I don't know about the injection you have but I would guess that there is a way to make it work. The only draw backs I see are that headers fit alittle tighter with the 351 due to the motor being wider than the 302. There are alot of tech articles regarding this swap so do some reading and and go to it.

Let us know what other questions you have.

 

[74bronc]

Short story: I bought a complete drivetrain (Howell-injected 302, C4 and Atlas 4.3) from a guy, who assured me it ran well and had "low miles." It was already pulled out of his buggy, so I couldn't test it easily and I trusted him. It's all installed and I've been messing with it for a week just trying to get it to run. The EFI works, I've traced all wiring, installed a new coil and tested the Mallory distributor. I finally decided to replace the plugs as a last resort, and while the plugs were out I figured I'd get compression readings for future reference. Guess what? The highest is only 115 and the lowest is 85. The engine is completely shot.

Right now I'm so pissed I don't even want to look at it, but eventually I'll get the drivetrain pulled. Here's the options I have:

- Get the engine rebuilt (if possible; I don't want to bore it too much tho to prevent overheating issues)
- Get a new or rebuilt long block 302.
- Go with a good 351W that a friend has.

Questions:
- What would you do? (It's primarily a hard core trail rig that's trailered if it's very far and only driven around town occasionally.)
- Is the 351W an easy swap?
- Will my current bellhousing, flexplate and torque convertor bolt to a 351W or would I need different ones?
- Will my current PS pump/bracket bolt to the 351W or would I need a different one?

If I go with the 351W, I'd swap the Howell over to it which would be easy. Anything else I should be aware of to figure out which way to go?

TIA

Steve

First of all, that totally sucks that you got the shaft. Next, yes the 351W is an easy swap as long as you make sure you have all the parts needed ahead of time. It drops right into the same mounts and will bolt to your C4. Whether or not the flexplate will work depends on what year 302 you have. Pre-1981, yes, it will work. If it is a later model 302, no it won't work.

yes, your power steering/alternator stuff will work on the windsor with the appropriate drop brakets as long as it is all stock stuff. If you have some sort of hybrid P/S/Alt setup on the 302, I am sure there is a way to make it work but it might not be easy.

There is tons of info out there on the 351W swap and I really like the 302 engine. The Howell injection will run well on the W just like it will on the 302 although i would recommend getting a new chip from howell for the 351W. I had a 302 in my bronco and now have a 351W and the 351W is better, hands down, in my opinion. It has ALOT more torque than my old 302. It pulls hills better, off-roads WAY better in 4LO and gets the same mileage as the old 302. However, I don't want to knock the 302 in any way as it is a very capable motor. I guess it all depends on how much you want to spend.

 

[Dr. Awsome]

I wouldn't conem the 302 yet. First of all that was a cold compression test. The reading when it is warn should be quite a bit higher. I do agree that it is worn out but it's not shot. My 302 has any where from 85 to 100 psi and it still runs great. I can still spin my 32's at will on dry pavement. I would recomend taking a couple days off from the rig and calm down. Do some resurch and figure out why it's not running. then try to fix it again. It could be as simple as the dizzy was pulled and them just tossed back in so the timing is way off. Stick with it you'll be happier in the end. Also while this engine is swoly dieing you can find the motor you want to replace it with.

 

[Steve]

Hello GJBman, I met you last year at Moab. I hope you'll be there this year.

I was hoping to be there, but this "development" almost gaurantees that I won't be. :'(

Before you condemn the compression reading did you do a dry test and a wet test? First, since you only quoted one set of readings I'm not sure you did both. You may only have a bad valve job. Taking both readings should comfirm it one way or the other.

No, I only did a dry tesst, but it really doesn't matter much whether it's valves, rings, or a combination. Readings that low tell me that the engine is just plain worn out. Did you know that an engine with compression that low won't hardly even run? I didn't, but I do now.

After killing the guy that sold this to you...

Let's just say it's a good thing he lives a couple of hundred miles from here because I don't need to end up in jail.

Next, yes the 351W is an easy swap as long as you make sure you have all the parts needed ahead of time. It drops right into the same mounts and will bolt to your C4. Whether or not the flexplate will work depends on what year 302 you have. Pre-1981, yes, it will work. If it is a later model 302, no it won't work.

yes, your power steering/alternator stuff will work on the windsor with the appropriate drop brakets as long as it is all stock stuff. If you have some sort of hybrid P/S/Alt setup on the 302, I am sure there is a way to make it work but it might not be easy.

It's a 70's era 302. I've got the canned ham PS pump with a Wild Horses bracket, and a stock alternator with stock mount.

Thanks a bunch for the info guys, keep it coming. I guess I'll get some info on the 351W about what comes with it, etc. A close friend that I really do trust has it and has offered it to me.

Q: Is the 351 block the same length as the 302?

 

[70_Steve]

Q: Is the 351 block the same length as the 302?

Yeah, pretty much everything is the same, except for the deck height of the block. That accounts for the wider intake manifold.

Look on some of the sponsors on-line catalogs to see information about the swap. Most will say to use the 302 timing cover and waterpump, and get the adapter brackets for the alternator and power steering pump. By using the front stuff off the 302, you gain a little fan to radiator clearance, and can reuse all your 302 accessory brackets.

The 1" body lift helps a bunch, and since I did mine, I wish I had gone 2", but I was trying to be conservative.... To get an idea of what's going to wind up where, just look at your 302 sitting in the engine compartment, then imagine the valve covers being an inch higher, and an inch out farther.

If you have long tube headers currently, you can reuse them, but expect the collector flange to either hit, or come really close to the frame. Not a problem. On advice from Tom, of Tom's Bronco Parts, I just bent my headers. Ran the engine a bit to heat up the tubes, then stuck a 2x4 between the collector and the frame and pryed away!!

 

[Bart]

Except for being one inch taller and one inch wider the Windsor and duce are identical. Intake Manifold won't change over (without adaptors) but almost every thing will. The power steering pump bracket may need a drill/file mod. I put bcb's high flow water pump on to help cooling my .040. I'm told that anything over .030 has heating problems. Hint!
Also, the oil pan is different

 

[Mark]

That sounds like an open and shut small claims court case. I assume you have such in Colorado, here in Indiana it's just a $35.00 filing fee and each of you present your case (no need for an attorney - unless you want) in front of a judge who then renders a decision.
You know, it's jack-@$$es like this that boil my blood and give me thoughts that are not saintly. Sometimes it's damn hard to turn the cheek

 

[Steve]

That sounds like an open and shut small claims court case. I assume you have such in Colorado, here in Indiana it's just a $35.00 filing fee and each of you present your case (no need for an attorney - unless you want) in front of a judge who then renders a decision.
You know, it's jack-@$$es like this that boil my blood and give me thoughts that are not saintly. Sometimes it's damn hard to turn the cheek

Mark,

Yeah, we have small claims court here, and our daughter is a court clerk so she could help us. I'm not a lawsuit kind of person though, and there was nothing at all in writing anyway. Here's the rest of the story:

I bought the complete engine, with the Howell system installed, alternator, shorty headers, etc.; complete C4 already bolted to the engine, with an Advance Adapter on the C4 tailshaft bolted to an Atlas 4.3, all for $3500. So, in terms of dollars, it's still a good deal. I had a good 302 in mine already, which I sold since the guy told me that it all ran great and had low miles. If I had known this, I could have swapped the Howell stuff over to my engine and it wouldn't have been a problem. Since I swapped from an NP435 to the auto, I also had to change the brake pedal assembly, along with installing and plumbing a remote tranny cooler and a whole bunch of other stuff. I've been working on it pretty steadily for a couple of months now, and wanted to have it done this last weekend so I'd have time to work the bugs out of it prior to the Moab Bronco Safari.

It's not so much an issue of the $ involved, but the time I've spent, a lot of which is now wasted since I'll end up pulling the entire drivetrain back out of it again. Fortunately I have a huge garage and every tool I need, including an engine hoist and stand, or it would suck a lot worse. Of course, given the condition of the engine, I'm wondering about the tranny. I'll probably rebuild it while it's out again, because I'd really hate to fix the engine, reinstall everything and find out the tranny's bad too.

In addition to the drivetrain swap, I completely rebuilt the front D44 and swapped from drum to disk brakes, so I've put in a bunch of hours this winter, and I really wanted to be done working on it and start driving it again.

 

[bsaunder]

Slap a 351w in there and be happy ;D

I'm actually surprised that the engine won't run with that compression though. The engine that I drove to and from Moab two years ago had a max psi of 85 with two cyclinders at 65psi - yea it was worn, but it ran. The engine before that only had ~120psi and it could pull stumps - all the compressions tests I did were dry and cold.

It really sucks though that it won't run. The swap to the 351w should be fairly painless.

 

[welndmn]

Something else is off for the motor to not run, I have seen motors run with Much MUCH MUCH less compression.

BTW before you condim the guy, have you spoken to him? I bet he never did a compression test on it either, but just installed a new motor.

 

[70_Steve]

This may be a stupid idea, and if it is, it certainly wouldn't be my first... but, Are you sure it's the engine that's the problem, and not the Howell FI?? Could you slap a carb on there and see if it would run? As was mentioned, although your compression numbers aren't the highest, or the most even, it should still run decent.

 

[SURFMUR]

I will chime in and say I drove a 302 for years and many thousands of miles (TX to CO a half a dozen times) and it's max cold dry compression was around 105 and a low of about 85. That engine always ran pretty decent for me, just didn't have as much power and liked to burn a little oil.
The guy that you are cussing may have been telling the truth and that 302 more than likely ran decent. Those compression numbers will not cause an engine not to run. The engine not running is probably attributable to something else, wiring/ timing/fuel injection.
Though if you have the funds just grab the 351w and throw it in. It is a very easy swap.

 

[SaddleUp]

Hello GJBman, I met you last year at Moab. I hope you'll be there this year.
Before you condemn the compression reading did you do a dry test and a wet test? First, since you only quoted one set of readings I'm not sure you did both. You may only have a bad valve job. Taking both readings should comfirm it one way or the other. I put a Windsor in my rig and love the torque. As I remember the flexi plate is the same (depending on the year of the Windsor) (pre '81 vs post 81) I THINK. The bell housing has the same bolt pattern. I did a one inch body lift and that helped line up everything and help with the 1 inch taller engine block. Let me know if you want/ need more information

I'm going to assume when you say Windsor motor that you are refering to the 351 Windsor. The Ford Small Block Windsor motor came as the 289, 302, 351 plus a couple others that are a bit more rare.

The 302 Windsor used 2 different flex plates. Early ones used the 28.2 oz. and late ones (Most 80's and 90's) used the 50 oz. I think all of the other early Windsor motors were 28.2 oz as well (289, 351, etc.). All stock 351 Windsor motors used the 28.2 oz. one clear up to 96 which was the last year of production for them.

 

[Steve]

This may be a stupid idea, and if it is, it certainly wouldn't be my first... but, Are you sure it's the engine that's the problem, and not the Howell FI?? Could you slap a carb on there and see if it would run? As was mentioned, although your compression numbers aren't the highest, or the most even, it should still run decent.

I may do that this weekend and see what happens - good suggestion. I've spoken with Howell several times this week (Great people BTW) and they are sure it's working correctly, and I can see the injectors firing.

BTW before you condim the guy, have you spoken to him? I bet he never did a compression test on it either, but just installed a new motor.

It came out of a UROC comp buggy. He told me he built it two years ago, with a brand new engine, ran it in two comps and lost interest. He let it sit for over a year, tried to sell the buggy whole and couldn't get anywhere near what it was worth, so he parted it out. Obviously it wasn't a new engine when he put it in... I've tried to contact him and left a message (a nice one) and we'll see if I hear from him.

 

[SaddleUp]

Did you have a rag stuffed in the intake when you did the compression test? It's amazing what difference the numbers make if it can't get any air into it. We recently had one where we taped off the lower intake to keep stuff out of it and then when we did a compression test the numbers all came out really low. We yanked the tape off and they came back up where they were supposed to be.

 

[Steve]

Did you have a rag stuffed in the intake when you did the compression test? It's amazing what difference the numbers make if it can't get any air into it.

Nope, didn't even have the air cleaner on it.

 

[2badrotties]

Before you get too depressed, calm down and take a deep breath, don't break anything, don't get in trouble.

Just by reading the very first post it sounds as if the guy spent some money. Aftermarket fuel injection, aftermarket transfer case, etc. RACE buggy ? Maybe a race cam ? Big cam ?

Doing a compression test on something that is built to race is a little different than a stock or semi stock engine. Big cams change everything. I had a 13 to1 motor that didn't make that much on a guage. OVERLAP on cams change everything. I don't know what is in it for a camshaft but I'd find out before you get too exited. MAYBE there is a big overlap cam in it and that is throwing off the reading. Maybe not but you have to look at the whole picture before you write the engine off as junk. Yes, the throttle body needs to be wide open, yes a valve adjustment could throw off a reading big time. Maybe it is in need of a valve job , maybe it has old heads and the unleaded fuel beat the seats to death.

Kinda trying to get you thing a little more positive untill you know for sure
Good luck with it, I hope you find it is another problem and not a bad engine.

 

[Steve]

Before you get too depressed, calm down and take a deep breath, don't break anything, don't get in trouble.

Always good advice. Last night I could have broken something, but didn't. I'm a lot calmer today.

Just by reading the very first post it sounds as if the guy spent some money. Aftermarket fuel injection, aftermarket transfer case, etc. RACE buggy ? Maybe a race cam ? Big cam ?

It was in a UROC rock crawling buggy, so is set up for torque, not HP, at low RPMs. So, it shouldn't have a big cam but you're right, I hadn't considered that. Of course, if that's what it is built for (which I don't think is the case) it would be a relatively useless engine for what I do even if it was perfect.

Maybe not but you have to look at the whole picture before you write the engine off as junk. Yes, the throttle body needs to be wide open, yes a valve adjustment could throw off a reading big time. Maybe it is in need of a valve job , maybe it has old heads and the unleaded fuel beat the seats to death.

Kinda trying to get you thing a little more positive untill you know for sure
Good luck with it, I hope you find it is another problem and not a bad engine.

I'm gonna take a few days off from it, and then do a compression test dry and after squirting oil in the cylinders, as well as a leakdown test. I was SOOOOOOOO wanting to be done with it by now.