Need a new starter

[Shimmy]

doing some research on here and the WWW. I see TBP and WH offer a mini starter too. Does anyone know what brand these are?

is there newer tech out there or a better brand to go with?

 

[ntsqd]

Ford OEM PMGR (Permanent Magnet Gear Reduction) starters. There are threads here that give either part numbers or applications that you can use to look one up. I used the info from one of them to figure out which starter to buy for the '70 Bronc-up with a 351W/NV4500 in it.

I can tell you that my '96 FSB with a 5.8L/Auto uses this starter: https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=3468210&cc=1106121&pt=4152&jsn=796 and that RA lists a starter for a manual trans in the same truck.

 

[Steve83]

There is no newer technology in starters since they were invented. They're all just DC electric motors with some mechanism for pushing the drive gear (which has an integral overrunning clutch) out to the ring gear.

Ask TBP & WH if their starters are branded, but they're probably just unbranded chy-neez knock-offs like anywhere else. Ford/MC is the best brand, of course.

 

[Shimmy]

ok so i guess i don't know what bell housing i have?! i posted a while back trying to figure this out when i realized my clutch equalizer bar mount looked different not having the bolt mount on the bellhousing. well now i'm trying to figure out what starter i need. all i have are these # in the pic. i'm thinking i need to find a Ford 3180 starter but not sure how to find the correct one from here?

any help?

maybe i need this one?

https://www.dbelectrical.com/produc...MI5bS2lOzvjgMV0CKtBh1ohz31EAQYAiABEgJSJPD_BwE

 

[DirtDonk]

How about some pictures of the bell housing?
Any reason to think that it’s not original?
Are you sure the bolt hole is missing in the bell housing, or is it missing on the engine block?
Newer engine blocks didn’t have the threaded hole.

 

[Shimmy]

How about some pictures of the bell housing?
Any reason to think that it’s not original?
Are you sure the bolt hole is missing in the bell housing, or is it missing on the engine block?
Newer engine blocks didn’t have the threaded hole.

i remember posting before and no one knew what bellhousing it was off of. i have a bolt hole on the engine block and a custom bent piece of metal that acts as the bell crank clutch mount. here's a pic. maybe a ford falcon? i've been searching by pics! lol

 

[DirtDonk]

I see what you’re saying now. But I don’t think it will matter what starter, since FORD used pretty much the same two starters on every vehicle that had a V8 from 65 to 85 or thereabouts.
Well, not the exact same, but close enough to get you there with two choices. On 164 tooth truck fly wheels, there was one starter for manual transmissions and one for automatics. With 157 tooth flywheels, I think the same starter fit both. Maybe it was the automatic starter? That’s where my knowledge fades out quickly.

Looks to me like you have a car bell housing with 157 tooth flywheel and small clutch. But that’s just a quick visual glance, and has no basis in known in fact
Someone can track down the part number/engineering number and figure out what it was designed for. But if it was a passenger car that wasn’t equipped with a big engine option, it’s probably just a 157 tooth manual transmission bell housing.
Meaning that one of the normal starters should fit. Just buy two starters locally, one for a manual transmission, and one for an automatic, and see which one matches best when you pull the old one out.
The only difference is the amount of reach of the snout and gear.

Now, I might be oversimplifying, and if so, hopefully someone here with more knowledge of the variations can set us straight. There were certain year late model Mustangs that use the same starter whether they had a manual or an automatic transmission. So they had a different flywheel offset.
Perhaps the only difference is 157 teeth? If so, we should be able to extrapolate from there.

 

[nvrstuk]

Paul, I will look up my 6r to SBF bellhousing adapter thread when I wasadapters. Ford had so many starters that my mind was going in circles for what was supposed to be only 2 basic types for auto & manual. I had 6 starters on my floor and they were all different- all for SBF! I couldn't believe it.

Anyway, OP- I have been using a mini- starter f+ yrs. Knock on wood, working great- so far.

Ask Todd Zuercher as he posted a Rock Auto special that I believe was Motorcraft (or other top name) that is a great price. I will try to get that starter #.

Mini's are the way to go. Small, lightweight and spin fast.

 

[jamesroney]

I see what you’re saying now. But I don’t think it will matter what starter, since FORD used pretty much the same two starters on every vehicle that had a V8 from 65 to 85 or thereabouts.
Well, not the exact same, but close enough to get you there with two choices. On 164 tooth truck fly wheels, there was one starter for manual transmissions and one for automatics. With 157 tooth flywheels, I think the same starter fit both. Maybe it was the automatic starter? That’s where my knowledge fades out quickly.

Looks to me like you have a car bell housing with 157 tooth flywheel and small clutch. But that’s just a quick visual glance, and has no basis in known in fact
Someone can track down the part number/engineering number and figure out what it was designed for. But if it was a passenger car that wasn’t equipped with a big engine option, it’s probably just a 157 tooth manual transmission bell housing.
Meaning that one of the normal starters should fit. Just buy two starters locally, one for a manual transmission, and one for an automatic, and see which one matches best when you pull the old one out.
The only difference is the amount of reach of the snout and gear.

Now, I might be oversimplifying, and if so, hopefully someone here with more knowledge of the variations can set us straight. There were certain year late model Mustangs that use the same starter whether they had a manual or an automatic transmission. So they had a different flywheel offset.
Perhaps the only difference is 157 teeth? If so, we should be able to extrapolate from there.

That’s a Sheffield C5DA-6394-AB bell.
157 tooth, passenger car manual bell used on 289 and 302 from 65-68.

The separator plate index diameter is slightly different, the bell is of course smaller, amd the ring gear “reach” is as you described.

But it’s generically known as a “157 tooth 6 bolt car bell.” And yeah, it’s a small clutch bell.

 

[nvrstuk]

James, do you know if this Bosch starter above is a mini or full size??

 

[Shimmy]

That’s a Sheffield C5DA-6394-AB bell.
157 tooth, passenger car manual bell used on 289 and 302 from 65-68.

The separator plate index diameter is slightly different, the bell is of course smaller, amd the ring gear “reach” is as you described.

But it’s generically known as a “157 tooth 6 bolt car bell.” And yeah, it’s a small clutch bell.

so a search for starters that fit 65-68 passenger cars and a 289/302 manual?

like a mustang?

 

[ntsqd]

I would look for the Ford OEM PMGR (Permanent Magnet, Gear Reduction) retrofit starter that fits that application. You'll be happy that you ditched the old school Ford starter and went with a PMGR instead. The engine will spin over faster and they seem to use less current to do so.

TopTip: use a paint pen to write on the starter what it's original application is where you can read it from under the truck so that if/when you need another one finding it is easy.

 

[jamesroney]

I would look for the Ford OEM PMGR (Permanent Magnet, Gear Reduction) retrofit starter that fits that application. You'll be happy that you ditched the old school Ford starter and went with a PMGR instead. The engine will spin over faster and they seem to use less current to do so.

TopTip: use a paint pen to write on the starter what it's original application is where you can read it from under the truck so that if/when you need another one finding it is easy.

For a 157 tooth manual transmission flywheel, you want:

1993 Ford Mustang 5.0 with 5 speed manual transmission. It's an E9SZ-11002-BRM or Motorcraft SA-769RM The Bosch number is SR-7542x.

THIS IS an EARLY BRONCO FORUM. If you have an early Bronco bell housing...ignore this post!

@nvrstuk I don't see a pic of a Bosch starter in this thread???

Side note - as @ntsqd, and @nvrstuk said, the Hi-Torq mini-starter, or the PMGR, or the Bosch mini, or the Denso, or the Mitsubishi, or the Visteon is VASTLY superior for a variety of reasons. I'm not going to argue with @Steve83 as to whether the "technology" has changed over the past 75 years, but suffice it to say that the application and availability of the technology has vastly changed. Sure the physics is the same, but the availability of cost effective solutions has most certainly "improved" with time. I'm pretty sure you could get fuel injection and a supercharger in a Hawker Hurricane in 1935. The technology didn't change since invented, but that's largely irrelevant.

 

[jamesroney]

so a search for starters that fit 65-68 passenger cars and a 289/302 manual?

like a mustang?

If you want an application that "can't miss" then search for a starter for a:

"1967 Ford Mustang VIN-C with a 289-2V, and a 3 speed manual."

You have to watch out for many catalog listings, because there is a 1967 Ford Station Wagon with the 289 V8 and 3 speed manual. You call it a "bronco."

Also need to watch out for the 1965 Mustang applications, because of the silly 1964.5 introduction, Which was really a 1964, but had some carryover parts...including the silly 5 bolt bell.

1968 is a peculiar year for the 302, because it could come with the 2V-302, or 2V-289, or the J-code 4V-302. That particular 302 used the 164 tooth aluminum bell.

 

[nvrstuk]

Everything James said...

BTW, if you want a Chevy sb starter I think there's maybe two different ones (maybe more) since the 265 came out... dang Ford!! Checy makes swapping EZ, hence the roddrrs like it!

 

[ntsqd]

GM did change the fore/aft flex-plate location on the LSx family of engines, resulting in at least one new starter p/n. They've been taking lessons from Ford?

 

[nvrstuk]

Hahaahhaha! I heard Henry the 3rd fired an engineer...maybe that disgruntled guy was on the GM design team

 

[DirtDonk]

I learned something new just the other day while watching Roadkill Garage. Even the old small block Chevys had two different starter designs.
I had only ever seen the one. I knew they were finicky, and often needed shims to work correctly, but I thought they were all the same.
These two were completely different designs and would not bolt up to the different engine/transmission combinations.
Freiberger explained it all, but I don’t remember the details.

 

[ntsqd]

There are three Gen I SBC/BBC starters that I know of. One bolts to the bell-housing ala Ford starters. I'm dimly recalling it uses three bolts, not two. No idea if these ever need shimming, never seen such a shim. These are usually found in HD truck applications and on very early SBC applications.
Then there are the two versions of starter that bolts to the engine block. One has the bolt holes inline and the other has them offset. These are the starters that frequently need shimming and rarely get it. they are also the starters that should have a small bracket on the front of them that bolts to the block to support the front end of the starter. This little bracket is a PITA and is usually missing, and just it's not being there can cause hot start problems.
This just covers the different mounting methods. Then you get into Std vs. HD starters where the HD starter armatures are longer.

 

[nvrstuk]

Is it just me?? I can be in a thread, enjoying the read and then SQUIRREL, I've taken us off on a tangent and NEVER looking back! oops... one of the worst had to be Steve's post where it was pages and pages of off topic stuff... good stuff tho... (least I thought so)... lol

I hereby promise to stay ON TOPIC, till I see a squirrel running by!!

Good day all.