New member with an oddity

[Ledbeter36]

First off Hello I am new obviously. I have checked this site out a lot and it seems to be loaded with great info and members. I am not a purist as I like a lot of old iron. If they don't make it anymore I probably like it. So I have a 1976 bronco frame running gear etc. that somebody put a 1983 cj-7 body on. I know blasphemy! Don't hate me I didn't do this my best guess is someone had a rotting bronco and a non running cj and this is what happened. Now I got it for very little investment. It runs and drives but has some things that need redone. My plan is to get it in good mechanical condition enjoy it the way it is for awhile while putting funds together for a new tub or another bronco with a body to take it back to all bronco. So my first issue is steering.
Due to the limited space with the cj body they could not use a stock bronco steering box. It would be outside the body. It has a ford box with a forward facing pitman arm. searching here I've seen it has been done usually when someone moves their front axle forward. This one has not been moved and the box is not all the way back to the pan hard mount it is about an inch away. I want to remove and do some frame repair in that area so should I move that back the one inch to the pan hard mount or will it matter? I know the 78-79 bronco used a steering configuration like this. what problems might I run into with changing the steering like this? I figured a custom inverted T would probably work best since the tie rod would be stock length but I think the drag link length would be custom depending on the pitman arm. I've also read here that people have used scout 2 boxes. I just so happen to also have a couple scout 2's so I've got some boxes. Would that be better? Thanks in advance and I'm sorry it's not a pure breed bronco but I hope and plan to return it to that state one day or at least use it to complete one.

 

[Broncobowsher]

Pictures pictures pictures.

We can guess at what you describe but a picture will really nail down the details. There are so many different things that could have been done. And dealing with unknown parts in an uncommon configuration it is impossible to say without actually see it.

Just don't send any pictures of the body%)

 

[Ledbeter36]

Ok not a problem I will get some pics this afternoon. I promise I will spare you the pics of the abomination that is sitting on top of it. One day I promise it will be corrected.

 

[spap]

Pics of the whole thing would be cool. It could of been a wrangler , but cj 7 are pretty cool

 

[FordBronc]

Did you get a title for the Bronco running gear? I have a tub, its rough, but its a Bronco tub. A set of front fenders, core support, a complete dash (well minus a ing switch). A back half roll bar, some custom bumpers. And I am IN Missouri...just north of Springfield. PM me.

Trash can the heep body and tube that sucker.

 

[DirtDonk]

Hey Ledbeter, welcome!
Are you saying that the existing steering box with the front-facing pitman arm is still outside the frame rail? Or is it mounted inside?
Sounds like it might be on the outside still, which means it definitely could be the full-size Bronco/F150 box and just never got converted to the "4x4x2" version by replacing the input section to let it steer with a rear-facing pitman arm.

You can use a Scout box in almost the stock location, but it's been so long since we talked about them that I don't remember if there were any pitfalls, other than drilling a hole or two, that you have to watch out for.
Still a few members here running around with them though, so hopefully they'll lend their knowledge.

I don't remember the Scout box being much more stout than the original Bronco box though, so depending on what you intend to do with the rig, or how large the tires are, I would at least consider spending money on a beefier box.
Easy for me to say obviously, since we sell them. But it's not without merit and should be considered.

On the other hand, if you do have the full-size '78/'79 box now, I would simply get a 2wd box from the '80's to almost current, I believe, and convert your existing box to reverse-steer so the pitman points in the correct direction for an EB and go that route.
Between that box and the inside-the-frame F100 box, you've got at least one of, if not the strongest standard box available for relatively easy fitment to an EB frame.
Definitely worth considering and would be high on my list.

I don't think there were any easily available inside-the-frame boxes that didn't already have rear-facing pitmans, but I could be wrong on that. So if you're saying your current box is inside the frame, here again we'd have to look at it to see what's up.
But you can see the typical F100 box and installed image in the links below.
If inside and you can get it to reverse steer, we may have a ready-made draglink for you here: Wild Horses Power Steering Options in the #2195 listed there in the second row.
It's for the inside the frame F100 box you can see there too, in the #2013 and #2015 kits.

Oh, and to post pics the easiest way, you'll need to become a contributor for 12 bucks a year. You can use an online hosting site and then link the images here, or even in a pinch e-mail them to me or one of the others with the yellow "contributor" beneath their username.
In a pinch you can also use your "garage" or personal image ability in your user CP settings.

The easiest is usually pony up the $12 though, and post them directly from your device. Assuming you think you'll benefit that is. And not have to put up with too much grief for your Jeep transgressions!!!;D

Good luck. Hopefully we can get you steering the way you want.

Paul

 

[Rustytruck]

Scout box uses the same sector shaft as the early Bronco box. It is just like the Bronco box but reverse direction steering. You use the early Bronco steering ball and worm swap to reverse direction. There was also Chevy worm swap you could do but I don't remember what model. You can use one mounting bolt and the other 2 have to be relocated and should be properly sleeved in the frame. Its no different in strength than the Bronco box. Probably worth more as a Scout box these days than conversion to a Bronco box. Ill bet the reverse worm they used is pretty rare these days.

 

[Ledbeter36]

Yeah I’ll become a contributor so I can post pics. But the issue is I can’t use a bronco box with rear facing arm. The Jeep front end is shorter and the bronco box would be through the grill. So I’m stuck with a forward facing pitman arm. It is a ford box because I found the ford symbol on it. Yes it is on the outside of the frame. I also know the scout box has a forward facing pitman arm because I have a 1979 scout 2 also. I think if I fix the crappy mounting job they did with the existing box and move it back to right up against the pan hard bar mount and get the correct T or maybe Y linkage it’ll work until the body swap.

 

[DirtDonk]

You got it! Thanks for being a contributor first of all. And thanks for the pics. They're worth a thousand words at least!

You have a '76 EB frame for sure, with the original (and bent it looks like) "Inverted-Y" linkage. You also have a full-size Bronco/F150 steering box in it's stock "front steer" orientation.
The holes in the frame just ahead of the box are where the original frame body mount bracket was welded and riveted.

Pretty cool rig actually! I'm sure lots can be done. I'll re-read your first post to see if you described what you want to do with the rig. If you didn't already, then let us know your intentions and expected tire size and how hard you have to play with it.

In the meantime, one other thing you can do to verify your lift is measure between the bottom of the frame rail and the top of the axle tubes. Stock is 7" in front and 6" in the back. Anything above that is your existing lift.
Take a couple of shots of the rear suspension too, so we can see what'cha got there too.

Gotta run to make mom dinner (who knew!) but will check it out closer when I get back.

Paul

 

[Ledbeter36]

Well my intentions are to run a 33 inch tire. What I want to accomplish is fix the things that were really poorly done like the steering. I can’t use a stock early bronco box it would be thru the grill. I think I can use the steering box on it but from what I’ve seen I need to move it as far back as possible. But before I do that I need to do frame repairs welding etc. besides not mounting the box as far back as possible they also didn’t use the tubes that run thru the frame. They just welded some thick metal plate on the outside and then bolted the box to it. I feel like this is a weak point. They also cut out the front engine cross member. This really concerns me. They did weld a large steel plate across the frame rails in front of the grill and welded a solid tube bumper up front. But I feel like it should have something closer to where the factory cross member was. They also notched the frame where the radiatior sits and welded a piece of channel for the radiator to sit in. I feel like that may be a weak spot also or at least it could have been done better. I’ll try to get some pics of the rear for you and some measurements.

 

[DirtDonk]

Well my intentions are to run a 33 inch tire. What I want to accomplish is fix the things that were really poorly done like the steering.

Will you be on the street, or will you be running it hard in the off-road world?
Reason I ask is that the Inverted-Y linkage is the weak link and you'd be better off (strength-wise anyway) with a conversion to the older Inverted-T style from one of us vendors.
Our stuff is made stronger in some areas material-wise, and geometry-wise it's a much stronger setup to begin with. No more having the driver's side short tie-rod pressing inward at the middle of the passenger's side long draglink. Reduces flex and toe-in changes to almost zero.
With your Frankenstein setup, you'd probably want something like this combination:
1. The tie-rod WH T-style tie-rod and draglink
2. Have them substitute this draglink for the '76/'77 one in the kit: WH '66-'75 Adjustable Draglink
3. You will probably need these for the full-size pitman arm: WH Tapered Sleeves
This combo gives you the correct length tie-rod, with the correct size rod-ends for the '76 knuckles, the draglink that would have the larger rod end taper at the pitman arm, and the sleeve to make up the difference. The second sleeve is not needed, but we only sell them in pairs because they're for another application.

I can’t use a stock early bronco box it would be thru the grill.

Not sure why that would be the case. If you see a stock Bronco box, it's simply a smaller version of what you have now, but in almost the same location.
We can measure to see how much difference there is in mounting, but I don't think it's anywhere near the grille in your case. The stock box mounts outside the frame rail, with three bolts, just ahead of the trackbar bracket.

I think I can use the steering box on it but from what I’ve seen I need to move it as far back as possible.

Yes, if you keep it in that configuration. But the best thing to do would be to convert it to reverse steering so it becomes what we call the "4x4x2" box. It uses the main body and sector shaft that you have now, but with a replacement input housing and shaft and gear from a 2wd Ford truck.
Then while you're fixing your frame, you can simply move it forward a few inches at the most to where the old body mount used to be (all those holes) and I think you even use one of the original mounting holes with the sleeve already in place.
Here's our instructions for that box on a Bronco frame: https://www.wildhorses4x4.com/product/Extreme_Duty_Steering_System/bronco_Power_Steering_Kits
It's for our ram-assist "Extreme Steering" setup, but it's using your box with reverse internals, mounted slightly forward of your current position. The pitman arm is then rotated 180 to point rearward and better line up with stock Bronco linkage geometries.

But before I do that I need to do frame repairs welding etc. besides not mounting the box as far back as possible they also didn’t use the tubes that run thru the frame. They just welded some thick metal plate on the outside and then bolted the box to it. I feel like this is a weak point.

Definitely. The plate helps of course, but there should be sleeves.
But definitely make some comparisons with some images of stock and modified setups here on the forums and those instructions from our ram-assist setup, and see if there is not going to be a simpler way of getting the job done.

They also cut out the front engine cross member. This really concerns me. They did weld a large steel plate across the frame rails in front of the grill and welded a solid tube bumper up front. But I feel like it should have something closer to where the factory cross member was.

Yikes. Yep, I agree it should be better with that crossmember in place. But the good news is that it won't be interfering with your steering box bolts anymore!
With that bumper and other reinforcements though, maybe you're in good shape. Maybe they even had to move the engine in the frame, so you might double-check that as well.
There is a great bunch of diagrams with measurements hereabouts on the forum. Steve83 also has them collated pretty well on his SuperMotors pages so you might do some searching there as well.
Might give you all the dimensions you need for your reference.

I hope you have fun with the whole thing.
One thing is certain though. You sure got job security ahead of you!

Paul

 

[Ledbeter36]

I’m not sure how to pick and choose pieces to quote like you did above other than quoting the whole think but I’ll avoid that so to answer a couple things. I could use a reverse pitman arm but the front of the power steering box is already through the grill slightly. So unless the pitman arm is shorter in reverse configuration or the box is smaller and or shorter it will stick out even more. Which honestly this was never going to be a show rig. It will see some street time but eventually will be the main off road rig I use so I’ll look at using a stock bronco box for simplicity.
The inverted T is what I’m going with. Thanks you basically confirmed what I felt like I needed to do there.

 

[DirtDonk]

Ok I guess I did not see the grille proximity in the picture. I know you had said that at least a couple of times, but I could not see it in the pic.

If you move it back though, like you were talking about, how would you negotiate that space with the trackbar mount and the spring tower? Not much available room there obviously. Although some have done it in the past, so I guess I can't say it's impossible. Been done.

And no, a reverse pitman arm might not be shorter. You wouldn't really want it too short anyway as that would slow down your turning and even limit your turning if you go too short.
But you do run out of space there too, which is why I was hoping you could move the box forward slightly to eliminate any possible pitman arm/draglink/trackbar interference.

But think about this too, while you're mulling all of your options over in your head.
The thing is already slightly hacked in some areas (or more than that in some even!), and the chassis/steering is to me at least way more important than the perfection of the body. So maybe you can move the box forward and the body-be-damned.
Better to get proper steering geometry and function than to keep a complete grille on a body you might even toss out down the road anyway. Right?
And when it comes right down to it, remember that in the original Jeep application, the steering box was in front of the grille anyway. Maybe there's a way to make it happen and still keep it clean looking and well engineered at the same time.

Good luck!

Paul

 

[DirtDonk]

And just in case you want to do it in the future, the whole multiple paragraph quote thing is pretty straightforward. A little tedious the way I do it, but not too bad if you can keep track of where you want the breaks.

When you click on the "quote" button in the lower right of the post, or posts you want to quote, you'll be in the "Go Advanced" screen and will see the words bracketed by the quote code with the person's username first, then at the end you'll see the simple quote bracket.
Simply copy and paste. Or ctrl-C and ctrl-V by highlighting the first quote and re-pasting it wherever you want a new quote to appear.
Do the same with the end quote in brackets at the end of each paragraph you want to answer, and that's it.

You can space, double-space, or whatever between quotes, and answer each one individually or answer a couple together. But your answer will be made outside the quote marks.

Hope that was as clear on paper as it used to be in my head!

Paul

 

[sprdv1]

Ok not a problem I will get some pics this afternoon. I promise I will spare you the pics of the abomination that is sitting on top of it. One day I promise it will be corrected.

time and money right...

 

[sprdv1]

I’m not sure how to pick and choose pieces to quote like you did above other than quoting the whole think but I’ll avoid that so to answer a couple things. I could use a reverse pitman arm but the front of the power steering box is already through the grill slightly. So unless the pitman arm is shorter in reverse configuration or the box is smaller and or shorter it will stick out even more. Which honestly this was never going to be a show rig. It will see some street time but eventually will be the main off road rig I use so I’ll look at using a stock bronco box for simplicity.
The inverted T is what I’m going with. Thanks you basically confirmed what I felt like I needed to do there.

Must attend OCBR as well if you can.. google up Oklahoma classic broncos

 

[Ledbeter36]

I’m going to probably just back the box up till it’s right in front of the trac bar mount. I’m basically be copying what the 78-79 full size bronco steering does. I’ve seen pics and read about it being done this way in early broncos with the full size bronco box. Some people do it so they get the stronger box that’s easily available for replacement without doing the 4x4x2 conversion. Since the forward facing pitman arm will put the drag link more forward of the track bar and other things there shouldn’t be a problem. The full size bronco works like this as do other similar setups so I think it’ll work out. As far as the missing crossmember and hack job. Sprdv1 has hooked me up with a great fabricator that knows early bronco is our area and he’s going to fix me up. I am a decent welder but I currently don’t have the facility’s to take on that task and I’d rather have a pro go at this part. Also I have a scout 2 build taking up a lot of my time. Yep just time and money.