New Product - BC Broncos Heim Joint Stud

[gddyap]

I noticed there wasn't any kind of "safety washer" on the pictured Bronco to prevent the body of the joint from coming off in case it separates from the ball. You can see the one Randall provides on the PU site. It's a stepped washer that allows full movement of the joint yet will prevent the body from flying off in case of joint failure. Something to consider.
Stacked spherical rod end joints if properly torqued with the right size bolt should theoretically be fine. The bolt should be under tension and not experience much shear. Before anyone chimes in, I said theoretically. I've run my PU setup that way for several years and a few trips on the 'con. I am going to switch back to tierod under however because my raised axle track bar mount acts as the bumpstop on the passenger side and limits compression. Also, the tierod will hit the frame track bar mount before the driver's bump stop will.
You should also consider the draglink yoke to be a clamp mount instead of weld on. If it's welded on, it will make adjusting toe-in more difficult. Assuming you use right and left handed rod ends, you could just turn the tierod to adjust toe-in. If the yoke is welded on, then you have to make sure the yoke ends up in the right spot after adjusting toe-in. You'll probably end up having to thread each rod end in or out instead. In that situation you only get half a turn resolution.

Gil

 

[68ford]

You're just getting on my nerves now. I think you're getting emotional. Do you need sometime at the mindbender to get back down to earth? I think you're mad that I bashed your 22" travel half circle leafs. :'( :'( There is more than one way to do things. Get over it. %) %)

As for the stacked heims...No they are not the best way to do things. But it is far from 'CRAZY' for a vehicle that is crawling and doesn't jump in the air. I've been running in the rocks for several years on some of the most insane trails and have never had an issue with the heims mounted that way. My rig has all the toys and very low gears too.

As for desert racing, which I suspect that is what you do, no I would not run stacked heims. The pressure that way would be much more concerning...especially with your half circles. There are several customers out there with several needs so think before you spew next time. I've never had bump steer because I too understand stearing geometry and how far you can push it and avoid bump stear.

As for selling something that would accomodate the PU set up...Chuck is right...you can buy the tap at most hardware stores and a hack saw is in all our tool bags. All you need is the yoke which I would bend at my local Blue Collar store. So, Chuck is right. Do it yourself. I was just thinking it might be a $$$ opportunity for him since there is so many of these kits out there.

Now don't go away mad...just go away.

My point was just to tell chick that he is doing it the right way, and if he was to promote the stacked heim method, he would only help sell a worse setup than his yoke, which is stronger and puts the sterring correct. i think the only reason bullet proof doesnt do this is for ease to the installer, like said above adjusting toe and it also doesnt require any welding durring manufacturing.
adjusting toe with one side is ok though, i dont remember exactly but i think 1/2 turn was about a 1/32 at the location where the heim bolts to the knuckle.

about me being bent about you liking flat springs is not true and only to your DISADVANTAGE. sure if they were really long they would be able to flex enough, but another thing about flat springs like stock f150s is they are not progressive, (able to be soft and just run an over load on the bottom). there is a reason why nobody promotes this method and especially doesnt use it for racing because it cycles horrible travel and at a minimum amount, neither me or saddle want your rig to work shitty,thats why we agreed it was a bad idea.
do your self a favor and call deaver, ask them what to do for longer springs. they are the BEST in the business hands down, all the bronco guys are going to them and all offroad racers use them ONLY.

 

[chuck]

I noticed there wasn't any kind of "safety washer" on the pictured Bronco to prevent the body of the joint from coming off in case it separates from the ball. You can see the one Randall provides on the PU site. It's a stepped washer that allows full movement of the joint yet will prevent the body from flying off in case of joint failure. Something to consider.
Stacked spherical rod end joints if properly torqued with the right size bolt should theoretically be fine. The bolt should be under tension and not experience much shear. Before anyone chimes in, I said theoretically. I've run my PU setup that way for several years and a few trips on the 'con. I am going to switch back to tierod under however because my raised axle track bar mount acts as the bumpstop on the passenger side and limits compression. Also, the tierod will hit the frame track bar mount before the driver's bump stop will.
You should also consider the draglink yoke to be a clamp mount instead of weld on. If it's welded on, it will make adjusting toe-in more difficult. Assuming you use right and left handed rod ends, you could just turn the tierod to adjust toe-in. If the yoke is welded on, then you have to make sure the yoke ends up in the right spot after adjusting toe-in. You'll probably end up having to thread each rod end in or out instead. In that situation you only get half a turn resolution.

Gil

The safty washer might be a good idea, I had not thought about it. Has anyone ever had a heim joint race
come off the ball? I would think the outside part would have to break for the ball to get out.
I thought about not welding the yoke but that would mean the the drag link would have to be a veriable length or I would have to stock a bunch diff lengths. I do sell the yoke and tierod separately.
Either heim can be removed and turned over to adjust the toe-in. The thread pitch of the heim is 16 per inch so 1/2 turn would be only 1/32" so there shouldn't be a problem adjusting the toe-in

 

[gddyap]

If you used a clamp style mount instead of weld on for your drag link yoke, then to adjust toe-in, you would loosen the yoke, turn the tierod to get proper toe-in, and then tighten yoke. No variable length draglink required. It would also be easier to center the steering wheel by moving the yoke along the tierod. Another use for a clamp on draglink yoke would be a ram assist mount on the tierod. I've seen a lot of people weld on the ram assist mounting tabs to the tierod but you run into the same problem with adjusting toe. You can also easily adjust the position of the end of the ram to optimize stroke. On the subject of ram assist, I read in a previous thread (might have been a post earlier in this one) about a new axle trackbar mount you have. Have you considered integrating a mount for a ram? When I look at my D44, the stock track bar bolt in the stock mount looks like a good location to mount one end of a ram. When I redesign my track bar mounts, I will probably integrate a ram mount at the same time.

Gil

 

[chuck]

If you used a clamp style mount instead of weld on for your drag link yoke, then to adjust toe-in, you would loosen the yoke, turn the tierod to get proper toe-in, and then tighten yoke. No variable length draglink required. It would also be easier to center the steering wheel by moving the yoke along the tierod. Another use for a clamp on draglink yoke would be a ram assist mount on the tierod. I've seen a lot of people weld on the ram assist mounting tabs to the tierod but you run into the same problem with adjusting toe. You can also easily adjust the position of the end of the ram to optimize stroke. On the subject of ram assist, I read in a previous thread (might have been a post earlier in this one) about a new axle trackbar mount you have. Have you considered integrating a mount for a ram? When I look at my D44, the stock track bar bolt in the stock mount looks like a good location to mount one end of a ram. When I redesign my track bar mounts, I will probably integrate a ram mount at the same time.

Gil

I am concerned about the clamp yoke coming loose and causing a lose of control.
Below is a couple of pictures of my first prototype track bar raise bracket with the ram assist mount. Please ignore the dirt and grease, the ram hose has a leak. The 04 picture is a front view and the 07 picture was taken from the rear. The whole system will be upgraded to the newer stuff. This is the raise bracket we tested in Moab 2 years ago. I used the upper inside radius arm cap bolt to keep the raise bracket from moving but as it turns out the radius arm moves seperately from the axle housing when articulating and the bolt broke. We had to weld it in place and the rest of the trip it worked great. The second generation raise bracket we used on the racer last year and had no problems at all. The 3ed generation will be out as soon as I can figure a way to help people figure out how high to set the track bar to not have bumpsteer. I may have that worked out now.

 

[gddyap]

The yoke coming loose is a valid concern, especially for a vendor selling it. Liability can kill you. Assuming it doesn't come loose, a clamp mount can take a lot of force. If you don't make a clamp mount for the draglink, a clamp mount for a ram on the tierod would still be nice. Not as much concern of it coming loose because if the ram slips, you don't lose your steering.
Your trackbar mount looks tall like mine. I'm sure you've taken this into account but watch how close it gets to the frame. Mine is only 3-4 inches away and I've bottomed out against it a couple times cruising at a modest speed on a trail. I've talked to another EB owner and he said he split the difference between a raised axle mount and lower frame mount. As far as determining how high, it looks like the WH mount has several holes to choose from depending on your tierod/draglink setup.
I've never heard of a ball separating from the body of a spherical rod end. They are usually replaced when they get sloppy. I suppose it's possible for the ball to separate from the body if the bearing surface degrades whether it's bronze or PTFE. If it gets really sloppy, it could pop out. You are already exposed to a lot of potential liability by selling a steering system, so adding a stepped safety washer wouldn't hurt, depending on the cost.

Gil

 

[ntsqd]

The safety washers already exist. In Road Racing they're known as "SCCA Washers" as the SCCA requires them on all single shear SRE mountings. This is b/c few SCCA club racers inspect their cars more frequently than once a year as the SCCA only tech's once a year. SCCA doesn't want worn SRE's popping off of their balls and causing an accident so they started requiring the washers. Searching Pegasus' online catalog should turn them up.

Some people get convinced that the desert racing/rock crawling/who knows what method is the only way to do things, regardless of the application. Nothing could be further from the truth. Beware the guy who claims to know the only "Correct way to do it" as he has an agenda. Each application has progressed in a given direction for a combination of reasons. That is not to say that a desert spring design won't crawl well, or a crawler spring design won't race well. Give up trying to convert people, it ain't going to happen anyway.

The clamp-on U bracket worries me. So does putting the steering loads into the tie rod at an angle. You'll note that when Ford & Jeep intersected the tie rod with the drag link that the drag link went all of the way to the RS steering arm and the tie rod came over to it. Doing it the common way runs the risk of introducing slop into the steering due to rotation of the tie rod about the SRE or TRE balls.

I won't claim to know the "Correct way to do it" but I do have an agenda. That is to bannish SRE's from all street driven steering linkage. I know that piss' people off. I wouldn't care except that pissed off people don't think logically & I want them to see why I've been against them since '96 when I first joined the EB world. When that SRE breaks on you I don't want to be close by.

TRE's are designed for the application, USE them.

 

[68ford]

is there any documented proof that sre's are not as strong as tre's? if one or the other breaks your goin for a fun ride. i just replace the sre's as soon as i feel any play,which i think is when the teflon is worn.
now if you had custom spindles and pitman arm, where all sre's were mounted double sheer, like most race trucks, wouldnt they be safer? if the bolt is going throught the entire thing, the heim body would have to break, and i think a tre would fail before that would happen.
im not trying to say the way my setup is "the right and only way" it just has no bumpsteer and no single sheer stacked heims. regardless of rock crawling or racing or especially grocery getting, wouldnt you want the least amount of bumpteer and the strongest setup?

 

[chuck]

If SCCA requires the washers then they must have had falures, my guess. I have never seen a heim come apart, I have seen TREs come apart quite a few times but I have seen a lot of TREs
We had a new F-150 TRE flat wear out in 900 miles of Baja last year. The heim in the track bar is still tight. We will be testing the heim ends this year and will be bringing spares for sure.
On all the 66-75 broncos I have looked at the drag link does not connect anywhere near the right knuckle. In fact I just measured one, the tierod from knuckle to knuckle is 47", the drag link connects to the tierod 13" from the right knuckle, that means the drag link connects to the tierod slightly closer to the center of the tierod than it does to the right knuckle. I think that connection point contributes to the weakness of the stock tierod system.
As someone said, it can't hurt so I will look into the SCCA washers. Thanks

 

[brian72]

If doing a TRO with '79 bronco TRE, I have heard you can have an issue with the size wheel you are running and weights getting knocked off. Would the heims eliminate that issue? They aren't as big, are they?

 

[chuck]

You must mean the 76-77 bronco knuckles. They are wider and come close to the wheels. The 78-79 have plenty of room. I have not tried the heims on the 76-77 knuckles yet but they are smaller and set lower so should fit.

 

[BRONKEN]

I thought the 76 & 77 knuckles set higher than all the others. I will be installing them on my 76 as soon as chuck sends them out. ;D

 

[NOTPRETTY]

If SCCA requires the washers then they must have had falures, my guess. I have never seen a heim come apart, I have seen TREs come apart quite a few times but I have seen a lot of TREs
We had a new F-150 TRE flat wear out in 900 miles of Baja last year. The heim in the track bar is still tight. We will be testing the heim ends this year and will be bringing spares for sure.
On all the 66-75 broncos I have looked at the drag link does not connect anywhere near the right knuckle. In fact I just measured one, the tierod from knuckle to knuckle is 47", the drag link connects to the tierod 13" from the right knuckle, that means the drag link connects to the tierod slightly closer to the center of the tierod than it does to the right knuckle. I think that connection point contributes to the weakness of the stock tierod system.
As someone said, it can't hurt so I will look into the SCCA washers. Thanks

Its all about proper installation, maintenance/lubing, and regular inspection. Be smart...understand where you have potential issues...know your vehicle.

 

[ntsqd]

All of the immediate above would be fine, except that it won't happen 100% Probably won't even happen 50%
The SCCA washer, while a prudent thing to do regardless, wouldn't be a rules requirement if the SCCA hadn't had experience with racers not maintaining their equipment. These are race cars that supposedly get much more thorough and frequent maintainence, not the average Joe's DD/Fishing/Camping/etc. machine.

SRE's are a reasonable choice for this appliccation, but historically their lifespan is nowhere near that of a TRE. IF the buyer knows and understands this, then OK. The problem is that most guys see some Rock buggy or dezert race truck with SRE steering linkage and think that they must be better than a TRE w/o ever thinking about why they are better for that particular application. They've gotten caught up in the "Trick, Race Car/Truck parts" romance. That means that they've assumed that an SRE is better than a TRE in any situation, which just isn't true.
Also factor in that most guys are not in an economic position to keep re-visiting the steering linkage. They need to do the linkage upgrade once and then not need to do more than normal maint. for the next 5-10 years unless they break something. I've yet to see an SRE live that long w/o any play or other problems.

 

[NOTPRETTY]

FWIW...I ran the PU set up for 4 years of rock crawling and snow wheeling. I did just replace them. My vehicle is not a daily driver...to trail, trail, home from trail only. I travel about 65 miles one way to the trail. I do wheel about 30-35 weekends per years though...no I'm not kidding. The heims were no longer tight on the tierod ends. The sphere/eye almost turned completely round within the heim...not good. The drag link ends were fine even tight but I replaced them anyway. Just some real world feedback. I think both methods work if used properly and the products are understood by the users. Overall, I would say tie rod ends are probably safer though.

 

[chuck]

My whole system is about he same price or a little cheaper than the stock stuff. It may not last as long ( I don't know yet) but it will be cheaper to repairi. The SREs are $25 each, maybe less. I hope the SREs last longer than the new F-150 tierod we wore out in Baja last year. But we plan to take a couple of extras along anyway.
Do you (anyone) think the SRE with the grease zurk would last longer? Assuming people would grease them/

 

[brian72]

Will the heim setup allow for a steering stabilizer?

 

[chuck]

With with a extra saddle you can run a steering damper or ram assist

 

[68ford]

if you use the weld on saddle like yours(mine is pretty much the same but two 3/16 shock tabs welded on) can you just run a longer bolt? through one plate, through the heim,through the next plate,then through the stabilizer,then nut?

 

[chuck]

I think the longer bolt would hit the right radius arm cap while turning.