Oil Change Debate ... Stop the Madness

[Jeepster]

[quote author=chuck link=board=5;threadid=11687;start=15#86163 date=1038330138]<br>From 1976 to today I have driven 7 new cars 120,000-150,000 before selling them. They were all<br> running fine when I sold them. Of the 7 the only problem I had was the 1995 mustang that we still <br>drive had bad headgaskets at about 80,000, at that time we changed the oil because water got in<br> the oil. That is the only time we ever changed the oil in any of the 7. When the oil gets dark I<br> change the filter and add a little oil. All of them pass the CA smog tests.<br>[/quote]<br><br> <br><br>Is that for real? <br>What is your thought process for doing it that way Chuck?

 

[DPM77]

Thanks for the info. I run Castrol 20w/50 in both my 460 and my 302, and in my wifes POS lincoln 6.2/6, change it at 3-4000 miles, or when I don't like the color or smell. This on my mechanic's recommendation.<br><br>Seems to me that using the best oil filter you can get might make a difference, so I use a NAPA Silver filter. Is there a better one? or does a secondary remote filtering system make a big difference? I would probably only do a secondary on the DD. Unfortunately, the EB just doesn't get that much driving time....<br><br>dpm<br><br><br>

 

[Jeepster]

http://minimopar.net/oilfilters.html

 

[ASE-73]

[quote author=dpm77 link=board=5;threadid=11687;start=15#86182 date=1038334997]<br>Thanks for the info. I run Castrol 20w/50 in both my 460 and my 302, and in my wifes POS lincoln 6.2/6, change it at 3-4000 miles, or when I don't like the color or smell. This on my mechanic's recommendation.<br><br>Seems to me that using the best oil filter you can get might make a difference, so I use a NAPA Silver filter. Is there a better one? or does a secondary remote filtering system make a big difference? I would probably only do a secondary on the DD. Unfortunately, the EB just doesn't get that much driving time....<br><br>dpm<br><br><br> <br>[/quote]<br><br>From my engine rebuilding experience, conventional Castrol and Valvoline are excellent in terms of wear and in controlling the level of deposits. The absolute worst were Penzoil and Quaker State ... once explained as an issue with both being parafin based oils that generate significantly more sludge. <br><br>The post on oil filter effectiveness is excellent. DO NOT use those piece-of-crap white filters from quickie oil change shops ... they typically do not have a check valve. The engine starts every time with low oil pressure given the filter has to "pump up" on every start (based on filter orientation). I sometimes think "quickie" is in reference to something other than an oil change

 

[74bronc]

<br><br>All engines have leakage past the rings, with new engines obviously having less ... and worn engines more. As explained, not all the combusion byproducts end up in the oil ... just a percentage that accumulates at a rate based on engine condition and operating conditions. <br><br>Yes, premium oil formulations and synthetics have additives that combat the detrimental effects of these agents, but do not eliminate this reality. While oil analysis might result in used oil being "suitable for contimued use", the real point is that the $ for an oil change is a very cheap investment as compared to the $$$$$ for an engine that could potentially last 2-3-4 times longer with 3,000 mile oil changes. <br><br>Also, the test lab criteria is based on the balancing of "acceptable wear" and the environmental concerns of more frequent oil changes. This logic is fine for my Briggs & Stratton, but not for my 302 or 351.<br><br>The combustion byproduct breakdown was directly from a BMW technical document. <br>

<br><br>Total Base Number (TBN) is what is used to measure an oils ablility to breakdown acids formed in the oil as a result of the little bits of fuel that get in the oil and as a result of high temperature operation. Synthetic motor oils consistently rate much higher on the TBN test than do petroleum based oils. For example, Castrol 20W-50 petroleum oil has a TBN of 7.0 while Amsoil 20W-50 has a TBN of >11.0 This means that the synthetic is much more capable of neutralizing these harmful acids that build up in engine oil. If you do some research on other synthetics, you will also notice that they too have a much higher TBN than do conventional oils. <br><br>Also, my understanding is that oil analysts tell you the facts surrounding the lab results of what was found in your oil and recommend what you should do with the oil (continue to use or replace). These labs constantly supply aircraft companies with information regarding engines that cost $20K to well over 1 million dollars each as they analyze the oil as it is replaced. This is hardly comparing Briggs and Strattons to 302's. I see their lab tests as independent and they have nothing to gain or lose from telling you the condition of your oil, regardless of the outcome of the engine oil analysis.<br><br>I would really like to see that BMW technical document because I would bet that it had something to do with BMW's Hydrogen vehicle program and not necessarily regular gasoline powered internal compustion engines, seeing as water is a natural byproduct of hydrogen powered vehicles. I also find it quite interesting that BMW specifies full-synthetic motor oil to be used in all of their cars from 1999-present with a few exceptions which take a specially formulated Castrol motor oil product. Their oil change intervals are also around 15K miles depending on when the on board computer decides it is ready to be changed. Also, it is interesting that Corvette, Porsche, Mercedes Benz and Jaguar all require synthetic motor oil. For some reason, I have a feeling that all the engineers at these companies know a little bit about their engines and synthetic oil technology and I will take their word over a Valvoline Instant Oil Changer station that still recommends a 3K mile change interval because that is how it's been for 100 years. They would be out of business without the 3K mile change interval mentality.<br><br>As you can see, this is a hotly debated topic. I feel that all motor oils are NOT created equal. HOWEVER, what it comes down to is each person must make a decision for themselves regarding $$$ and how their car will be used. I find it much more convenient to pay a 4 times more for oil that I can leave in the engine 8 times longer, have better MPG, better cold starts, better thermal stability and better lubricating power. For me, I intend to have my bronco for a long time and having the best motor oil available in the crankcase gives me piece of mind knowing that I won't have to deal with an engine related issue for many, many years.<br><br>Sorry for the novel ;D

 

[75]

if i remember chem correctly; the burning of a hydrocarbon has three basic products: heat, carbondioxide and water. ch4+4ox=2h20+co2+heat.subsequently for every ch4 burned a molocule of water is produced. octane has eight such carbons so it makes eight molocules of water. if im wrong, plz correct me

 

[BwoncoHowie]

I am in no position to give advice on what oil to use or how long to leave it in the engine between services. You will have to decide on your own, but all oils will absorb contaminants form both air and combustion gasses, hence the oil will go bad over time even if the engine has not been used between oil change intervals.<br><br>Re: filters; I have studied these extensively an have determined by testing them, info in consumer reports, and actually cutting them open, I have been able to determine the best quality and construction for my Bronco & money. From a standpoint of being able to filter out particles that are truly harmful to engine components. And being engineed to go at least 6,000 miles. Let me just mention 3 brands. Motorcraft, Wix/Napa (Wix Builds filters for NAPA), and, AC Delco. All the other most popular brands that were tested were acceptable for approx. 4,000 miles but on the average, if you happen to go past that by a couple thousand miles, some would get plugged elements and begin to bypass. The next time you have a few extra bucks and some time, If you are not using one of the 3 brands mentioned, go and buy your brand and one of three above, cut the canister all the way around the circumference of the seam with a hacksaw. This can be done by threading the filter onto a piece of pipe clamped in a vice. Open both filters and compare quality and construction of the internal components. it should be obvious to you which filter, at the very least has better designed construction.

 

[BwoncoHowie]

The other reason I choose Motorcraft is that I have this neat little oil filter socket that fits over the serrations of the filter can so I can take the filter off with a 3/8" drive ratchet... ;D

 

[Jeepster]

[quote author=BwoncoHowie link=board=5;threadid=11687;start=15#86255 date=1038347462]<br>The other reason I choose Motorcraft is that I have this neat little oil filter socket that fits over the serrations of the filter can so I can take the filter off with a 3/8" drive ratchet... ;D<br>[/quote]<br><br>There you go, good enough for me. : ;D

 

[chuck]

<br> <br><br>Is that for real? <br>What is your thought process for doing it that way Chuck?<br>

It is for real. My thoughts are, oil does not wear out, it gets contaminated. <br> Most of the byproducts produced by combustion go out the exhaust, not into your oil.<br>sense the 70's cars have had PCV systems so when oil gets warm vapers are sucked off like water. <br>before the PCV valves sludge was the main reason to change oil because every time you would turn<br> the eng. off it would start to cool and draw air into the crankcase, the water in that air would<br> condense and mix with the oil causing sludge, sludge would plug up oil ports quick and the eng <br>bearings would not last long after that. very little water in the oil= very little sludge. That is why today<br> you can remove a valve cover and see metal on an eng. that has 150,000 miles on it but with a <br>pre-PCV eng. with 30,000 miles you could not see anything but sludge under the valve cover.<br> The filter gets most of what is left. The dirtier the filter gets the smaller the particle it will filter so the<br> dirtier the filter the better until it starts to by-pass. When it starts to by pass your oil will turn black<br> and that is the time that I replace my filter. It has been working for me for years.

 

[thesnake]

That's cool. I do it about every two months for the hell of it. I think my kids check their oil when the piston busts thru the block.<br><br>snake

 

[74bronc]

[quote author=thesnake link=board=5;threadid=11687;start=30#86260 date=1038348112]<br>That's cool. I do it about every two months for the hell of it. I think my kids check their oil when the piston busts thru the block.<br><br>snake<br>[/quote]<br><br>LOL, that sounds like my sister!! "What, you have to add oil to it?"

 

[BwoncoHowie]

Hey Jeepster!<br>Nice website on filters!<br>Here it is again!<br><br>http://minimopar.net/oilfilters.html

 

[YellowBronc]

Heck, mine leaks so much all I do is add oil. It never gets dirty!

 

[Gordys74]

[quote author=YellowBronc link=board=5;threadid=11687;start=30#86305 date=1038356611]<br>Heck, mine leaks so much all I do is add oil. It never gets dirty! <br>[/quote]HeeHee, mine too! This thread has taught me one thing, no more Fram oil filters. I bought them cause they were everywhere and cheap.<br><br>Hey YellowBronc, Knob Noster sounds like a place i've been before. Where is it located? My memory is goin' bad.

 

[dksroland]

[quote author=YellowBronc link=board=5;threadid=11687;start=30#86305 date=1038356611]<br>Heck, mine leaks so much all I do is add oil. It never gets dirty! <br>[/quote]<br>yea, my f250 is great like that .Changes its own oil. All I gotta do is add a quart every tank or so of gas. ;D

 

[66horse]

[quote author=73wanky link=board=5;threadid=11687;start=30#86401 date=1038374012]<br>[quote author=YellowBronc link=board=5;threadid=11687;start=30#86305 date=1038356611]<br>Heck, mine leaks so much all I do is add oil. It never gets dirty! <br>[/quote]<br>yea, my f250 is great like that .Changes its own oil. All I gotta do is add a quart every tank or so of gas. ;D<br>[/quote]<br><br>Sounds like my f150, but its about 3 quarts per tank. <br><br>But it has been running like that for about 25,000 miles now.

 

[edjolly]

Buddy of mine worked in a shop back in the day. Seems an old codger customer of his came in every few months to have the toilet paper roll changed in his car. <br>That's right, his filter used toilet paper rolls as the elements (old school stuff--like oil bath air filters--boy those were the days!) and he just had them put in a new TP roll and add a quart of oil.<br>Heck, Maybe Chuck knew him!<br><br>Ed<br>

 

[FSRBIKER]

"Why do auto manufacturers recommend oil change intervals at 5,000 … 8,000 or even 12,000 miles ??? Modern engines designs and the advanced metallurgy of engine components combined with the tighter tolerances achieved by modern manufacturing processes have resulted in engines that are capable of operating 200,000 to 300,000 miles before major engine wear and subsequent rebuild is required. Auto manufacturers intentionally design oil change intervals around the legacy assumption that an engine that lasts 100,000 miles is acceptable to the consumer … translating to a faster turn on major repair bills, motivating new car purchases."<br><br> How sad<br><br>