Paint behind timing cover

[73azbronco]

And what do you think happens to the particles less than 10 microns that get through the oil filter when the oil is changed. What are those other parts they attach to ?? What damage do they cause and where is your proof that particles less than 10 microns magically attach to other parts, or are you just making that up???

you win, im out

 

[Grey owl]

you win, im out

Those were all reasonable questions, i have torn down and rebuilt probably 15 Sbf's. I am no expert but have hands on experience with these engines. I am just curious where you get your information.

 

[joshua]

Is this timing set the same as you had in your picture on post #1 of this thread ? That pic looks as if there was no clearance issues ,,, as Paul asked ther does seem to be a little arch / alignment issue either Carl a cam gear ? Or is the pic deceiving?

Correct, but I pushed the bottom gear all the way back, it must not have been pushed all the way. I’m worried once the balancer goes on it will be pushed back, so I don’t think it will likely just sit in place. Idk maybe it’s just the wrong chain set. I would really like to y it, as it’s stamped USA and is tight.

 

[jamesroney]

OMG. I tried so hard to stay out of this thread. @Grey owl @ntsqd and @73azbronco you guys can relax now. The real "know it all" has entered the chat...

0. Paint brings some advantage to engine assembly. High performance ford engines and axle castings are indeed coated with Glyptal. I often paint the interior surfaces of my engines. Glyptal seals the pores of the casting and retains microscopic sand remnants. It also provides for improved oil flow. The PROBLEM with painting things is that if you don't do it yourself...you cannot trust that the surface prep, cleaning, priming and application were performed properly. So I always have to take it to bare metal and build it up. (not unlike body work) So @Steve83 is both right, and wrong. Kind of moot now, since you have already cleaned it.

1. Every oil filter approved for use on a SBF has a bypass valve. The Fram PH-8A, Motocraft FL-1A, Wix 51515 ALL OF THEM. The poppet on the bypass valve will open to an orifice up to .150. This is vastly bigger than the typical 16-20 mesh in the pickup tube. The typical bypass valve opens when the media exhibits 12-15 psi delta. This happens when the media is plugged, but ALSO when thick cold oil is forced thru the filter. Cold Start with cold oil and high rpm will overcome even new media, and open the bypass valve. Once in a while, the valve will burp, and some gunk will hang it open against the spring. Then strange things happen. I’ve seen gunk abrade crankshaft bearings that had no business getting past any kind of media.

2. @joshua you have entered the world of high performance parts on stock engines. And you are 100% correct that the damper will seat that gear. And it's a good thing you took it apart. The fact that the 86-95 Ford 5.0 HO came with a factory double roller timing chain further aggravates things. Somebody has source a "high performance" US made aftermarket timing set. That double roller chain uses extra heavy pins and chain. So yes, it's wider than "stock" and much wider than the factory morse silent chain. It is VASTLY superior to anything Ford ever put in an engine. BUT...as you have discovered, it doesn't actually fit.

In order to use it, you MUST relieve the block in areas where it makes contact. It WILL relieve itself if you do not. I have pulled apart a few Fords where the timing chain eats a groove in the block. Follow the instructions from the supplier on how to install the timing set. You will find that your sanding belt makes quick work of the task. It is not out of the question to make a sleeve or shim to pull the gear outward to align it EXACTLY with the cam sprocket.

If you want any other advice, just tag me, otherwise I will remain quiet and amused...

 

[joshua]

Here is a pick from the side. To me if anything thing the crank gear looks farther away from the block than the cam gear. I drew arrows. But it’s really hard to tell.

@jamesroney I think I’m very close to being clear of the block. But I have no clue how deep I can go. To me it seems I’ve taken very little off, but I definitely can feel some depression there. Very nerve wracking.

As far as the manufacturers guide lines go, I don’t have um. These markings are all I have to go on, and didn’t turn anything up.

 

[bmc69]

Passing comment: I've built more performance SBFs than I'll stop to count and am still building them...and have never encountered this chain-block interference issue before.

 

[Steve83]

I...took some material off. But it’s still hitting.

Add a washer thick enough to make the chain run straight so it doesn't touch. If it's because of the cam gear, put the washer there. Also try the previous set to see how it ran. Check both gearsets withOUT their chains using a straightedge along the cam gear's machined face near the teeth.

...the 86-95 Ford 5.0 HO came with a factory double roller timing chain further aggravates things. Somebody has source a "high performance" US made aftermarket timing set. That double roller chain uses extra heavy pins and chain. So yes, it's wider than "stock"...

Would the factory/direct-replacement '86-up DR chain & gearset fit without any interference?

 

[jamesroney]

Passing comment: I've built more performance SBFs than I'll stop to count and am still building them...and have never encountered this chain-block interference issue before.

That's because you've never tried to use the Cloyes 9-1138 Street True Roller Timing Set with a cast sprocket made by S.A. Gear Chicago. The "S120A" castign number is a giveaway. The 9-1138 uses a true .25 inch heavy double roller chain. If you know what you are doing, and you are not running a huge cam, you would use the C-3057 chain, which is a .200 chain and is slightly thinner, and fits without modifications. If you try to use a 9-1138 in an E7TE block, they will rub every time.

Would the factory/direct-replacement '86-up DR chain & gearset fit without any interference?

Yes. The factory Ford E3AE-A3A sprocket (also made by Cloyes) is native to the E7TE and F1SE block. They run fine. But they are not "high performance." They are "Heavy Duty"

"high performance" uses the true roller chain. The "heavy Duty" chain is a pinned roller chain.

And when I say, no interference, I mean on the block side. When you use the E3AE-A3A sprocket on the cam side, it has a thick hub, which won't work with the deep fuel pump eccentric and the timing cover. Lately I just machine the sprocket thinner, so that I don't have to buy the $15 2pc thin eccentric. But the explorer timing cover (and the Fox cover) have no provision for a fuel pump mount, so when I build one of those, I just use the Fox slinger and tab.

Hope that helps.

And yes, your advice on shimming the sprockets is 100% sound. But if you are building a race engine, you are running a torrington roller thrust bearing, and the thinner retainer plate. So once you have your upper timing sprocket location defined, you would machine a custom shim to put your lower sprocket in-line. But this is the problem with using high performance parts on low performance builds.

@joshua I think you will find my answers above will answer your questions. You can google the installation instructions for the Cloyes 9-1138. But they are kind of useless. Should need to take off no more than .025.

 

[jamesroney]

@joshua here are two pics for you from my 331 today. You can see the distance from the sprocket face to the machined block face. It’s about .900 on the crank, and about .715 on the cam face. This is an E7TE roller block.

When I say you need clearance for the big chain, Im talking about tiny amounts of clearance. ( .025 max). Post a pic of the BACKSIDE of your crank sprocket please.

@bmc69 is not wrong. Lots of people just run the big chain, and never even notice it’s kissing the block. Ive pulled apart Fox engines where the chain made its own groove. It’s just a little bit.

Are you 100% sure thats the right sprocket? Or is it one of those aftermarket multi-key crank sprockets? Some of those sell a spacer so that they can run on different applications. You gotta be careful.

 

[jamesroney]

Pics.

 

[joshua]

@joshua here are two pics for you from my 331 today. You can see the distance from the sprocket face to the machined block face. It’s about .900 on the crank, and about .715 on the cam face. This is an E7TE roller block.

When I say you need clearance for the big chain, Im talking about tiny amounts of clearance. ( .025 max). Post a pic of the BACKSIDE of your crank sprocket please.

@bmc69 is not wrong. Lots of people just run the big chain, and never even notice it’s kissing the block. Ive pulled apart Fox engines where the chain made its own groove. It’s just a little bit.

Are you 100% sure thats the right sprocket? Or is it one of those aftermarket multi-key crank sprockets? Some of those sell a spacer so that they can run on different applications. You gotta be careful.

James I have clue if it’s the correct sprocket. It is multi key. I didn’t purchase it or put it on. But this juice isn’t worth the squeeze. It’s a completely stock engine. I ordered a new timing set from oreillys. But it’s a single chain. I’m assuming after hearing it came with a double chain from the factory that this single chain is incorrect.


Edit: it has 3 key slots.


Here is the new chain.

 

[joshua]

@jamesroney I forgot I bought this years back, maybe this would be the ticket?

 

[joshua]

Here’s some more

 

[joshua]

It fits with the Edelbrock chain, so I’m going to go use it as I can just move forward. I have a 351w I would like to use that other timing set on, hopefully without issue. But idk why it wouldn’t have the same problem, hopefully I’m not on a time crunch when I reach that bridge.

 

[joshua]

I do have one final question before I close up the timing cover and this thread.

I do not need, or wouldn’t be able fit this oil slinger with the double chain set up correct?

 

[jamesroney]

I do have one final question before I close up the timing cover and this thread.

I do not need, or wouldn’t be able fit this oil slinger with the double chain set up correct?

That looks like a slinger from an earlier non-HO 302.

I don’t run that slinger with a double roller chain, and by 1996, Ford stopped using them on the 5.0 Explorer.

 

[joshua]

That looks like a slinger from an earlier non-HO 302.

I don’t run that slinger with a double roller chain, and by 1996, Ford stopped using them on the 5.0 Explorer.

Ok thanks, and yes it’s off a non ho. I’m also assuming that’s why the valves in those heads cleared the pistons and were able to run. And won’t work on the new ho.
Was another thread from a week ago.

Ok thanks guys! I appreciate it!

 

[73azbronco]

Passing comment: I've built more performance SBFs than I'll stop to count and am still building them...and have never encountered this chain-block interference issue before.

ditto, maybe not more than i can count, but ive never seen interreference using numerous versions of chains and gears