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Pinion angle

stupidboy

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What is exceptable pinion angle? I have 5-1/2” lift with all for fun long arms and 2 degree caster bushings.
I have noticed that I don’t have enough caster for good return to center on the steering. I have not yet got any readings from an alignment shop but I will and I’m going to turn the inner c’s to fix caster.
I want to correct pinion angle at the same time if it’s necessary. Could those of you that know, let me know the optimal upper and lower limits? Thanks, Pat.
 

lars

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I'll take a stab at it. Sounds like you have a good plan- get readings first. Here's what I did 20 years ago.

For pinion angle, think of a straight line between the pinion yoke and the transfer case yoke. The pinion shaft should be 1-2 degrees low from that line, at normal ride height. I got lucky when I set mine up. 2 degree C bushings, my homebrew radius arms and a much longer than stock NV4500 transmission. I didn't have to do anything. The reason for being a little low, I'm told, is so that the needle bearings in the forward u-joint move a bit when the driveshaft is turning. Keeps grease moving around, etc.

For caster, I'd say about 6 degrees is a good target. Say, 5.-7. I started by replacing the 7 degree C bushings (which gave me a measly +1 degrees) with 2 degree C bushings, then took it to an alignment shop, a fun time since at that point I had -4 degrees! It was almost undriveable. Cut and turned, wound up at +6 degrees. The difference was impressive. Since then my Bronco's steering has felt normal, at least to me.
 

jamesroney

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Fremont, CA
What is exceptable pinion angle? I have 5-1/2” lift with all for fun long arms and 2 degree caster bushings.
I have noticed that I don’t have enough caster for good return to center on the steering. I have not yet got any readings from an alignment shop but I will and I’m going to turn the inner c’s to fix caster.
I want to correct pinion angle at the same time if it’s necessary. Could those of you that know, let me know the optimal upper and lower limits? Thanks, Pat.
Gonna need more detail on your question. And you are going to get a bunch of different answers. And you will know that most of them are garbage.

I am sure that I have posted the solution several times, and It goes something like this: I will say "you should wipe your butt with your right hand from back to front..." and then someone will chime in and say..."but I have been wiping my butt with my left hand for years. Then someone else will say, "no, that's not right you should go front to back."

35 years of experience has taught me that there is no single correct answer. There is no single best answer. There are a bunch of compromises that have to be made, and you need to determine what compromise is the most acceptable to you.

Let's take a look at the standard Hooke's universal joint. It has a cross yoke, and two ears. Some will call it a Cardan joint. Credit should go to the original inventor, but since the marine compass gimbal mount was invented a thousand years ago...we'll start with Hooke. There are THREE primary failure modes in a u-joint.
1. Strength.
2. Vibration.
3. Wear.

1. strength. You need to look no farther than your front steering axle shaft u-joint to see that it operates from Zero degrees to about 33 degrees. You can also visualize a universal joint on your socket extension. It operates perfectly at zero degrees, and does not operate at all at 90 degrees. So as the angle increases, the amount of torque transferred decreases. Once you get above about 30 degrees, the joint loses well over half of it's strength.

2. Vibration. The vast majority of universal joint application engineering is based on angular velocity, rotational velocity, and torque. As a Hooke's joint rotates, the output shaft speed increases and decreases with every revolution. If these changes in velocity are not mitigated by a complimentary velocity change...you get vibration. The vibration is proportional to velocity, and angle.

3. Wear. Universal joints will wear out. The needles and crosses are not designed for significant rotation. Driveshaft u-joints start to wear prematurely at any angle greater than about 2 degrees. You can get needle Brinnelling at zero degrees, so there is a compromise there. Most application tables recommend a non-zero angle, and a maximum angle of 1 degree.

My Opinion:
1. This is the one that everybody thinks about, and is the least interesting in a front driveshaft. The Yokes start binding at about 15 degrees, which is far sooner than the joint stops transmitting torque. but everyone will tell you to run 1350's because they are "stronger". Nobody out there is breaking a 1310 driveshaft joint running between 0 and 10 degrees. So I'm going to say 10 degrees max here.
2. This is the big one. A driveshaft u-joint is looking for 1-2 degrees without cancellation. There is no cancellation on the front axle. But the vast majority of Bronco driver's are running at high speed with the hubs unlocked in 2WD. So THEY don't care. So they sacrifice vibration. I'm going to say 2 degrees here.
3. Wear. The correct answer here is 0 degrees. I KNOW that the design recommendation is 1-1.5, but that is Engineering stupidity. The model is inadequately constrained. Nobody designs a driveshaft at 0 degrees, because if you could actually run there...you wouldn't need a u-joint. So it's stupid. The driveshaft will move thru several degrees from normal motion and load. So the desired angle will be zero at nominal dynamic load height, and high RPM load. Meaning when sufficient torque is applied to propel the vehicle at 60MPH under normal conditions, the u joint angle should be zero. This means that a static height and zero load, the angle should probably be 1-2 degrees down.

@lars types faster than I do...

So I'm done now.
 

jamesroney

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Fremont, CA
I'll take a stab at it. (snip...)

For caster, I'd say about 6 degrees is a good target. Say, 5.-7. I started by replacing the 7 degree C bushings (which gave me a measly +1 degrees) with 2 degree C bushings, then took it to an alignment shop, a fun time since at that point I had -4 degrees! It was almost undriveable. Cut and turned, wound up at +6 degrees. The difference was impressive. Since then my Bronco's steering has felt normal, at least to me.
Yes, but everything I have to say about caster is already written here. ^^^^^
 
OP
OP
stupidboy

stupidboy

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My wifes porn star.
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
Messages
5,790
Loc.
Morrisdale Pa.
What is exceptable pinion angle? I have 5-1/2” lift with all for fun long arms and 2 degree caster bushings.
I have noticed that I don’t have enough caster for good return to center on the steering. I have not yet got any readings from an alignment shop but I will and I’m going to turn the inner c’s to fix caster.
I want to correct pinion angle at the same time if it’s necessary. Could those of you that know, let me know the optimal upper and lower limits? Thanks, Pat.
Yes, but everything I have to say about caster is already written here. ^^^^^
😳😳what the heck, I thought maybe 5 degrees to 30 and your saying 1to 2 wow, I’m going to have to check it. I’m sure that in the front at the transfer case it’s considerably more than that.
 

Yeller

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Rogers County Oklahoma
The transfer case is what it is. Get the pinion in line with the driveshaft, and get to 5-7 degrees of caster. Do TRO and a track bar riser, it will drive incredibly well. Even if you don’t do the TRO and track bar it will be night and day better.
 

jamesroney

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😳😳what the heck, I thought maybe 5 degrees to 30 and your saying 1to 2 wow, I’m going to have to check it. I’m sure that in the front at the transfer case it’s considerably more than that.
Yes, but the front driveshaft at the front of the transfer case has 2 universal joints. And that changes items 2 completely.
 

lars

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There is a crew of us on here, we should probably be called the Caster Correcters. I wish I could find the early threads on this site, over 20 years ago. Someone posted about cutting and turning, that inspired me to do likewise. Educated myself about the why's and how's about the same time. Who ever that was, he was the one the one that opened my eyes.
 

jamesroney

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Sr. Member
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Sep 11, 2007
Messages
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Loc.
Fremont, CA
There is a crew of us on here, we should probably be called the Caster Correcters. I wish I could find the early threads on this site, over 20 years ago. Someone posted about cutting and turning, that inspired me to do likewise. Educated myself about the why's and how's about the same time. Who ever that was, he was the one the one that opened my eyes.
I remember some colorful discussions at a Mud-In-Yer Eye trail run, (or maybe it was Johnson Valley) Jim Cole had a wristed housing unlocked and I remember thinking...Well that thing is never going to steer right. I also thought...Hey, I can rotate an Inner C instead of yanking out those tubes.

I never wanted to pull the inner C, because I always thought they were loose fit, and Dana welded them in a jig. Totally wrong about that!

I would like to join the Caster Correction Crew...(or am I already a member?)
 

lars

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Been here awhile
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Messages
3,102
Loc.
NorCal flatlands
I remember some colorful discussions at a Mud-In-Yer Eye trail run, (or maybe it was Johnson Valley) Jim Cole had a wristed housing unlocked and I remember thinking...Well that thing is never going to steer right. I also thought...Hey, I can rotate an Inner C instead of yanking out those tubes.

I never wanted to pull the inner C, because I always thought they were loose fit, and Dana welded them in a jig. Totally wrong about that!

I would like to join the Caster Correction Crew...(or am I already a member?)
Too late. You are already a Charter Member with oak clusters and all that.
 
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