Porting 4x4x2 box in a non-typical spot... thoughts?

[LSharpNM]

Sorry Nvrstuk - didn't mean to hijack your thread. LsharpNM - do you have a preferred / recommended location to drill and tap in the servo unit to maximize flow? Trying to maximize likelihood of having quick enough responsive steering on road.

I can't tell you exactly where on a 4x4x2 box would be ideal since I don't have personal experience with them, but look where all the steering companies tap their boxes for an idea of the area I am talking about.

Here's an example:

Here's a thread on different boxes: https://www.pirate4x4.com/threads/where-to-tap-a-saginaw-power-steering-box-for-hydro-assist.2702761/#post-44988344

You might have to pull your servo apart to figure out the best spots.
Here's a thread of someone doing that on a Delphi box: https://irate4x4.com/general-4x4/276993-delphi-600-steering-box-tech-jeep-wj

I am porting directly in the large cavity (top of the cap) with the sector shaft and at the end of the piston (valve) at that farthest end of the box. For clarification, are you saying that these 2 spots don't have enough fluid volume?

I can see where porting a small return inner passage spot inside the box where fluid is channeled might not have the flow but could you explain why the 2 spots I mentioned wouldn't have enough volume?

Just don't want to have issues-thx

Not so much "volume" as flow rate being the issue. You are trying to move a larger volume of fluid in the same amount of time through the small passageways that power the piston in the steering gear. These passage ways are restrictive and slow down the flow of fluid which means you can turn the steering wheel faster than the hydraulics can keep up. When trying to steer quickly (think emergency maneuvers/counter-steering) it can feel like you don't have power steering at all and make it difficult to impossible to steer as quickly as you need to.

You can always just do it like you planned and see how it comes out, I don't have personal experience with the 4x4x2, so I can't say how restrictive the passageways are relative to other boxes, but regardless, going straight from the servo is always ideal.

Y'all see a problem with porting at these locations (photos stolen from pirate4x4)?

These locations are basically the same thing as the locations nvrstuk is proposing from a flow perspective.

 

[SavageBurro]

I can't tell you exactly where on a 4x4x2 box would be ideal since I don't have personal experience with them, but look where all the steering companies tap their boxes for an idea of the area I am talking about.

Here's an example:

Here's a thread on different boxes: https://www.pirate4x4.com/threads/where-to-tap-a-saginaw-power-steering-box-for-hydro-assist.2702761/#post-44988344

You might have to pull your servo apart to figure out the best spots.
Here's a thread of someone doing that on a Delphi box: https://irate4x4.com/general-4x4/276993-delphi-600-steering-box-tech-jeep-wj



Not so much "volume" as flow rate being the issue. You are trying to move a larger volume of fluid in the same amount of time through the small passageways that power the piston in the steering gear. These passage ways are restrictive and slow down the flow of fluid which means you can turn the steering wheel faster than the hydraulics can keep up. When trying to steer quickly (think emergency maneuvers/counter-steering) it can feel like you don't have power steering at all and make it difficult to impossible to steer as quickly as you need to.

You can always just do it like you planned and see how it comes out, I don't have personal experience with the 4x4x2, so I can't say how restrictive the passageways are relative to other boxes, but regardless, going straight from the servo is always ideal.



These locations are basically the same thing as the locations nvrstuk is proposing from a flow perspective.

Thank you very much! The more expensive and getting hard to find part is the ps box body w sector shaft. The valve assemblies are readily available in Jy. I think I even have a few lying around. I think I'll take one apart and see if I can find the best place to port it. thanks again. Again - sorry NvrStuck for hijacking!

 

[nvrstuk]

Been out of town...

I am not in any way discounting what you are describing about volume rates, etc. Just what 2 companies that port boxes by the thousands a month told me... and they didn't address flow rates, just customer returns I'm sure.

Both companies told me they would not tap the box for a ram exactly where you circled because of the wall thickness of the casting in that area. They both tap at the end of the 4x4x2 box and the drivers side of the box that is appr 1 1/2" below the cap. This is why I didn't tap in the area you mentioned- little to no material there (this is a quote from these companies).

That being said tho--

I do know that PSC silver solders or brazes the fittings in place in the locations you describe since they just told a buddy of mine that there isn't enough material to tap. Maybe that's what I should do then.

I am having the issue you are describing about not being able to turn the strg wheel fast enough (started a thread on it) but at idle speed only. At 900rpm I can turn the strg about as fast as possible w/o any "wait-time" or resistance from waiting for the ram to fill. At my 700rpm idle speed I have to wait when trying to turn the wheel extremely quickly. Been driving me nuts.

I do have a question about driving characteristics tho. Will the strg get "squirrely" or overly sensitive if the flow rate is that high? I know after porting and changing the pully diameter on my ps pump (to help fix this "slow steering" on mine) it made my strg extremely sensitive at 35mph and up. I mean it was really sensitive to strg input. Took about a month with me driving it everyday to get used to it.

This is on a 4x4x2 box. Thanks

 

[bronco t]

Check out Howe Performance writeup of "what kind of box are you building" - Fast -vs- Slow.

We switched to their ram assist system for the 2020 Baja1000 and finished 1st in class (7f Ranger) without taco bending any steering components (for the first time)!

These guys know steering!

http://www.howeperformance.com/parts/steering-boxes/

 

[nvrstuk]

Thanks Bronco T.

I'll read it when I get in from the shop tonight. Appreciate the link.

 

[nvrstuk]

Good read... that's what I'm dealing with. I want the box to react as fast as I can crank that wheel !!

 

[SavageBurro]

https://classicbroncos.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215177&page=2

Looks like bknbronco was looking into porting the valve assembly. I just sent him a PM asking how it turned out.

 

[nvrstuk]

THanks. I couldn't find my post saving the steps that someone did porting their valve assbly in the 4x4x2 box. Looked for an hour...

Hope he gets back to you, appreciate you asking him.

 

[SavageBurro]

NPT is tons easier... no special tools. Drill, tap, done... even I can do it.

You're definately right on this.. no good locations w flat areas wide enough for 9/16 orb. I ground a flat area in top for rt turn fitting, drilled tapped for 9/16 -18 tpi then used $2.0 harbor freight 3/4 90deg chamfer bit to give oring a seat. Worked nice. Left turn was more difficult. Few flat areas not wide enough. I ended up adding weld to end to increase flat area, ground flat..then drilled a hole to 1/2, then welded a grade 8 9/16 18 tpi nut as a weld bung over the hole. The recess in the nut was perfect for the oring to seat. The 90 deg 9/16 to 6an fitting fit perfect between core support and frame...allowing access to tighten fitting from under.

Before the ram...my ps pump had trouble turning my 39s under 900 rpm even in 2wd and would often not turn at all when locked in 4 under bind.

W ram....I still have slow turn issues under 900 rpm but at least I can turn when fully locked in 4wd.

Nobody makes a smaller vbelt pulley to fit. (I did find a 5" pulley w .67 id that I might get and drill to .75) I'm probably going to swap out the psc pump for dual return saginaw (future hydroboost) and do the hiflow mod and see how it performs.

Also did tro and 1 ton linkage. Was not easy w 39s and keeping low.

 

[nvrstuk]

Which psc pump?

Pre ram- I could barely muscle my 37"s aired to 8psi, ARB locked on pavement. Impossible in the rocks.

Ram - night and day.

PSC pumps needs the orifice output dia increased - at least their early pumps did-which is what I run. SSR/Trailblaze and some Caddy stock OE pump with a couple mods. 1500 psi and increased gpm for the ram.

 

[jmhend]

You're definately right on this.. no good locations w flat areas wide enough for 9/16 orb. I ground a flat area in top for rt turn fitting, drilled tapped for 9/16 -18 tpi then used $2.0 harbor freight 3/4 90deg chamfer bit to give oring a seat. Worked nice. Left turn was more difficult. Few flat areas not wide enough. I ended up adding weld to end to increase flat area, ground flat..then drilled a hole to 1/2, then welded a grade 8 9/16 18 tpi nut as a weld bung over the hole. The recess in the nut was perfect for the oring to seat. The 90 deg 9/16 to 6an fitting fit perfect between core support and frame...allowing access to tighten fitting from under.



Before the ram...my ps pump had trouble turning my 39s under 900 rpm even in 2wd and would often not turn at all when locked in 4 under bind.



W ram....I still have slow turn issues under 900 rpm but at least I can turn when fully locked in 4wd.



Nobody makes a smaller vbelt pulley to fit. (I did find a 5" pulley w .67 id that I might get and drill to .75) I'm probably going to swap out the psc pump for dual return saginaw (future hydroboost) and do the hiflow mod and see how it performs.



Also did tro and 1 ton linkage. Was not easy w 39s and keeping low.

Let me know if you switch to the Saginaw pump. I drilled the pump and called Dorman to get a 5" pulley. It fit perfectly. I posted a thread on this several months ago.

Jason

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[SavageBurro]

Whuch psc pump?

Pre ram- I could barely muscle my 37"s aired to 8psi, ARB locked on pavement. Impossible in the rocks.

Ram - night and day.

PSC pumps need porting- at least their early pumps did-which is what I run.

Pretty sure its an older PSC pump. Came on the bronco.

 

[SavageBurro]

Let me know if you switch to the Saginaw pump. I drilled the pump and called Dorman to get a 5" pulley. It fit perfectly. I posted a thread on this several months ago.

Jason

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Thanks Jason. I'll look for your thread. Do you recall the dorman #. I think my pump pulley uses 0.75 id, same as many saginaw.

 

[SavageBurro]

Thanks Jason. I'll look for your thread. Do you recall the dorman #. I think my pump pulley uses 0.75 id, same as many saginaw.

I found your thread. I actually did read that before. Unfortunately I'm still running V belt. I happen to have two pulleys for serpentine that are 4.5" and 5". Last bronco had explorer front dress and I used a 4.75" pulley on saginaw pump that worked awesome. I never see over 3500 rpm. Hardly ever over 3k actually so not worried about high rpm probs w pump. Thx for the idea!

 

[jmhend]

I found your thread. I actually did read that before. Unfortunately I'm still running V belt. I happen to have two pulleys for serpentine that are 4.5" and 5". Last bronco had explorer front dress and I used a 4.75" pulley on saginaw pump that worked awesome. I never see over 3500 rpm. Hardly ever over 3k actually so not worried about high rpm probs w pump. Thx for the idea!

This is the Amazon order I used.

Dorman 300-137 Power Steering Pulley

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B009XA9784/ref=mobile_oh_details_?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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[nvrstuk]

Don't have to worry about overspinning any of these new pumps. When I was chatting with Kelvin at PSC he stressed that downsizing the pulley is not a problem anymore. I let him know I was concerned since I routinely spin 6 grand and he was bumping my pulley size down a lot. I have not had any issues so you should be good at 3-3500 rpm.

 

[jmhend]

Don't have to worry about overspinning any of these new pumps. When I was chatting with Kelvin at PSC he stressed that downsizing the pulley is not a problem anymore. I let him know I was concerned since I routinely spin 6 grand and he was bumping my pulley size down a lot. I have not had any issues so you should be good at 3-3500 rpm.

Agreed. I spin mine at 3500 for hours on the interstate no issues at all.

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[SavageBurro]

Agreed. I spin mine at 3500 for hours on the interstate no issues at all.

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Wish there was a smaller v-belt pulley to fit. Always sumpthin.

 

[jmhend]

Wish there was a smaller v-belt pulley to fit. Always sumpthin.

I would call the tech line at Dorman and give them the part number that I posted and ask them what they have that is similar (assuming you are running a Saginaw pump). Or measure the shaft and tell them the pulley size that you desire.

I never had to say it was on a Ford 302, automatic, with GT40 heads, paint code is rust and the vin is missing.... like the local parts stores.

The Dorman tech was great.

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[nvrstuk]

This diagram for porting is NOT correct for a Ford 4x4x2 box.

Example: the right turn high pressure areas marked are incorrect to connect to the ram for turning right.

Just swap the left for the right and your ram will work. It's probably because it makes the box turn to the right but the pressure in that spot in the box when connected to the ram MUST be connected to make the ram turn left, not right.

Ask me how I know.