Pricing crazies AGAIN

[DebosDave'72]

Some good points in this thread, but lots of BS also. Can't we all just get along? ;D

FWIW, just be sure to remember that COST and VALUE are two completely different things and often get mixed up. We have two stockers that $25K could not come close to buying, but the reality is we have less invested in each of them than I have continually pourred into my trail rig over the years. However, if I were to sell the trail rig, I'd be surprised to get much over $20K for it (even though this years upgrades alone are over half that ).

Karl is a good friend and has some of the nicest EB's I have seen hands down(and I'd venture to say that I have crawled in and around more EB's up close and in person than the average person on this forum by far).

The only thing that dissapoints me is when people can not differentiate a medicore or half ass quality resto from something truly top shelf and unique, and they still think it is worth nearly the same. Trust me, it does not take long to rack up $25K, $50K, or more in a build as I know at least several others on here are well aware of.

Is it insane...sure it is, but it is what it is and if you want top shelf it costs, even when you do most all the work yourself.

A street rod shop that is owned by one of our club members has an entire shop full of projects that are $75K-$200K+ builds. Yep, it's crazy where all the money comes from, but that level of quality is what people want and are willing to pay to have it just how they want it.

IMO if someone can get top dollar for something that is true quality, great. But the buyers should beware, because there are losts of mid-grade and low quality restos out there with top shlef price tags.

Bottom line is that most of our rigs aren't worth BIG $ except to the RIGHT person who likes it, wants it, AND has the cash to make the deal.

There are lots of people out there who have more money than sense and will spend it on crap, those are the ones being targeted, but it pisses off and wastes time for people like Karl and I when sellers continually tell us how "rust free", "original", "clean", etc, etc. a rig is and then we drive 500-1000 miles and find it to be BS. I know for a fact that this has happend to Karl a couple times in the last year alone.

Even if you ask for 100 pictures, there is still things that can be hidden that you can only see up close.

No one that I can see has defended somone making a false claim to their bronco, everyone that is upset with KB is only so because he is attacking a value... Well this guy started his auction at $100, so unless someone can prove he shill bid it up, or something like that... then back off the guy... he started it low, and whomever won was willing to pay that price...

There is a lot of BS on ebay and elsewhere... people misstate a lot of their stuff, I work in a PawnShop, believe me I have had people tell me on the phone their stuff was mint, and when it comes through the door it is hardly that... but what KB was mad about was the price this was going for... unless the seller was somehow the high bidder or affiliated with the high bidder, someone other than the seller decided what it was worth.... so lay off the seller unless you can prove he did something wrong... There is another bronco back on ebay now, that is clearly fishy... there is a lot to substantiate that claim... This deal may be fishy too, but that's not about the value...

Dave

 

[weps]

The only thing that dissapoints me is when people can not differentiate a medicore or half ass quality resto from something truly top shelf and unique, and they still think it is worth nearly the same. Trust me, it does not take long to rack up $25K, $50K, or more in a build as I know at least several others on here are well aware of.

so how are you (personally) qualifying the ebay bronco in this thread's original post?

 

[Broncitis]

No one that I can see has defended somone making a false claim to their bronco, everyone that is upset with KB is only so because he is attacking a value... Well this guy started his auction at $100, so unless someone can prove he shill bid it up, or something like that... then back off the guy... he started it low, and whomever won was willing to pay that price...

There is a lot of BS on ebay and elsewhere... people misstate a lot of their stuff, I work in a PawnShop, believe me I have had people tell me on the phone their stuff was mint, and when it comes through the door it is hardly that... but what KB was mad about was the price this was going for... unless the seller was somehow the high bidder or affiliated with the high bidder, someone other than the seller decided what it was worth.... so lay off the seller unless you can prove he did something wrong... There is another bronco back on ebay now, that is clearly fishy... there is a lot to substantiate that claim... This deal may be fishy too, but that's not about the value...

Dave

I did not look at the auction and never said anything about the seller, so there is nothing for me to "back off of"?

I simply commented on the general value/cost/worth since it's a continual hot topic (especially within this forum for some reason).

Again, I do not know the seller and have no connection with his deal and made no comment on him directly, so there is nothing for me to "lay off of" either?

I just looked at the auction and it looks like a nice rig from the pics. Would I pay $26K for it, not a chance (especially without having someone local who I'd trust like Todd Z. going to look at it first). But I do know some guys who would.

The seller may have started it off at $100, but that is irrelivant depending on what his reserve was. More power to him. Prices like that make ours all the more valuable ;D I'm not a big fan of the private listing where you can not see the bidders identities as this seller did. That seems fishy to me most of the time.

I'm not 100% sure of what Karl's beef was, and honestly I don't care. It's his beef (if there really was one and not some observations that got construed as one), not mine.

I know my dad and I have some EB's that can be shown next to any out there and it's MY opinion that when your spending over $25K, you should still gete something pretty unique (more than chrome modulars, off brand tires and some fair paint), whether it's a super clean stocker, or a nicely modified street/trail rig.

With that said, it's been my long standing opinion that the best bang for your buck is to find one that is at least 80-90% of what you want and then go from there. Even better is to find an unfinished project that's been sitting in the corner of someones garage after they lost interest or realized what it would really cost to complete it. Either way, those sellers normally take a large loss on what they had invested.

There are many less people making money on really nice Broncos than those making money on "flips" that only have enough bling to make some buyers think they are high end enough to be worth the premium the seller demands. The look of that rig had flip written all over it to me, but again, that's just my opinon so you can discount that of course . I'd look it over VERY close to see if it was actually a quality job or just a 20 footer.

Having been into EB's very actively for 15 years and having bought and sold 50 or so and having built/restored a few that are widely recognized as "high end" these are just my personal observations. Your's may certainly be different.

Besides the pawn biz, what's your experiance with EB values (buying, selling, buliding, restoring, or?)?

 

[DebosDave'72]

I did not look at the auction and never said anything about the seller, so there is nothing for me to "back off of"?

I simply commented on the general value/cost/worth since it's a continual hot topic (especially within this forum for some reason).

Again, I do not know the seller and have no connection with his deal and made no comment on him directly, so there is nothing for me to "lay off of" either?

I just looked at the auction and it looks like a nice rig from the pics. Would I pay $26K for it, not a chance (especially without having someone local who I'd trust like Todd Z. going to look at it first). But I do know some guys who would.

The seller may have started it off at $100, but that is irrelivant depending on what his reserve was. More power to him. Prices like that make ours all the more valuable ;D I'm not a big fan of the private listing where you can not see the bidders identities as this seller did. That seems fishy to me most of the time.

I'm not 100% sure of what Karl's beef was, and honestly I don't care. It's his beef (if there really was one and not some observations that got construed as one), not mine.

I know my dad and I have some EB's that can be shown next to any out there and it's MY opinion that when your spending over $25K, you should still gete something pretty unique (more than chrome modulars, off brand tires and some fair paint), whether it's a super clean stocker, or a nicely modified street/trail rig.

With that said, it's been my long standing opinion that the best bang for your buck is to find one that is at least 80-90% of what you want and then go from there. Even better is to find an unfinished project that's been sitting in the corner of someones garage after they lost interest or realized what it would really cost to complete it. Either way, those sellers normally take a large loss on what they had invested.

There are many less people making money on really nice Broncos than those making money on "flips" that only have enough bling to make some buyers think they are high end enough to be worth the premium the seller demands. The look of that rig had flip written all over it to me, but again, that's just my opinon so you can discount that of course . I'd look it over VERY close to see if it was actually a quality job or just a 20 footer.

Having been into EB's very actively for 15 years and having bought and sold 50 or so and having built/restored a few that are widely recognized as "high end" these are just my personal observations. Your's may certainly be different.

Besides the pawn biz, what's your experiance with EB values (buying, selling, buliding, restoring, or?)?

I have not pretended to be an expert on value of broncos, I have not once said this one was worth $25,000. would I personally pay $25,000, absolutely not.. however, what the gripe Karl had was with the seller... well in my opinion you can't be a seller unless you have a buyer... is a private bidder auction fishy, sure... but I can understand that choice, as sometimes your bidders get a bunch of propoganda or approached by others selling broncos. A private auction doesn't mean he is trying to rip someone off... I don't know the seller, and don't really care. I just wonder why Karl is getting so mad at someone who is just trying to make some money on something?? Clearly the seller in this case had a bronco on consignment... who is the bad guy here? The consignor? The guy who wants the most possible out of his ride? The seller? My goodness... this shouldn't even be talked about on here... if someone is getting the most for their bronco, it is great for all of us that own broncos... they are only able to do so because they are getting rare, and more and more popular.... If Karl is indeed trying to sell his ride, is someone going to bitch about how much he gets for it? I notice he has a reserve on his, does that make him a rip off artist? if his reserve doesn't get met, he doesn't have a buyer that agrees with him on the value.. .that is what took place here... If anything broncos like the one this thread is about is why his bronco is going for more than that one... He has a very nice bronco there, but as stated over and over, you don't get out of one what you put into it, so it is only as a comparison to the other ones that his stands out as clearly worth more than $25,000... without the other "comparitive sales" where does one determine what Karl's is worth?

The bitching about what people are getting for their broncos seems like socialism to me... I know flame on, but when you are trying to control a free market, that's what it is. This guy should be able to sell his bronco for whatever he feels its worth, the only catch is finding a buyer who agrees with that value... That's what makes this country great, you can sell whatever you want for whatever you want... people bitching about that seems a little absurd to me... What happens when I want to sell my rig? Should I ask Karl what its worth? Then if he tells me, should I refuse offers above that? Come on man... I guess we will see, if Karl's reserve gets met, does he have max value in mind for his? Will he turn down more money than he thinks his is worth?

Real Estate is a great comparison for this argument... There are some crappy houses built out there, and the peope that own them get a lot of money out of them, because of the market... These homeowners in Karls words must be Rip Off Artists, because someone is willing to pay them top dollar for comparitive crap... Hey we all own a rare vehicle that is getting more and more rare, they are also getting more and more popular... sorry this guys bronco sold for $25,000. That is stupid, if it was mine, I would wish it sold for way less.... There were some errors in the guys ad, but it didn't appear to me that it was an intentional attempt to mislead folks.. there are examples of that out there, but like they say, buyer beware... it is the buyers fault if he buys crap for a premium.... They have the choice to bid on or not bid on an item.

This is just my $.02, and I don't know Karl at all, and hope I didn't offend him, but I would take great offense to what he said if I was the guy selling this rig.... and feel like I do take offense as each and everyday I try to get the most out of what I am selling.... but every customer I have has the choice to purchase or not...

Dave

 

[bandit]

How much may I sell mine for,sir?

If I ever ,God forbid,have to sell my '73,who in the BRONCO POLICE,do I have to get permission from,to set the price?Damn ,I must have no right to ask near what I put into it?If I think a rig is not worth it ,I wont buy it.Why do people get so pissed off over this subject.On the three main classic Bronco sites,this subject comes up ,and guys go nuts.I dont get it,what the hell.I'm just a Wyoming hillbilly driving a '73,what do I know?
BANDIT

 

[Broncitis]

I'll give you at least a grand if it runs

If I ever ,God forbid,have to sell my '73,who in the BRONCO POLICE,do I have to get permission from,to set the price?Damn ,I must have no right to ask near what I put into it?If I think a rig is not worth it ,I wont buy it.Why do people get so pissed off over this subject.On the three main classic Bronco sites,this subject comes up ,and guys go nuts.I dont get it,what the hell.I'm just a Wyoming hillbilly driving a '73,what do I know?
BANDIT

 

[bandit]

Your a pal,and hey your responsible for delivery!DEAL!
Do I have to include my brand new 35 spline Currie,it was $3,500.00,can I keep that please?
BANDIT

 

[Broncitis]

Dave:

Seems you need to ask your questions to Karl, not me since they are directed more towards him than to my posts.

As for value. It's pretty simple. Look at the list of goods and add it up, then look at the quality of the work and figure in a realistic amount of labor at $25-$50 per hour (or more depending on your area and connections). Now you get an idea what it would cost to build it. Then you have to see if it is close to what YOU would build. If so, then if you offer somewhere aorund 75% of that, you'd be way ahead of the game if you don't mind driving something you did not personally build.

I did not see anything real impressive on the one on the auction, therefore I stand by my statement that the buyer paid too much. For that type of coin on a modified rig, I want to see the begining of a lanudry list of at least some minor goodies.

One that was a great deal IMO was when Brent Kinch (familer to many who have been active on some of the various email lists over the years) sold his on ebay. Another was that of Bryan Rainwater from Alabama. Both were very sweet, both were supercharged, both had incredible lists of items that booked out at over $40-$50K just for the parts. The both sold for around $25K as I recall. Those were STEALS for someone wanting well built, tricked out EB's.

Hell, on Karl's rig, the custom streched AFW frame, STC top, and just one set of his tires and wheels alone likely cost more than all the extras on the one that started this thread. I've had the opportunity to loook that rig over from top to bottom and can verify that it is very well done. There is not one nut, bolt or stock part that has not been detailed/modified/or replaced.

If I were in the market for a rig like that and was prepared to pay to have one built similarly, it would be well worth $35K-$40K plus to ME, IF that is what I wanted from the rig.

The first rig he built is probably one of my favorite EB's of all time. He sold that a few years back to a friend of ours who then sold it last year on ebay to a guy in Chicago.

To my Dad who primarily ony enjoys our stockers, neither rig would be worth even $20K to HIM, since that is not what HE wants in an EB.

I'm not pissed at the seller, I could care less about him. Especially since it's a dealer and I'm sure he could give a rats ass less about the Bronco other than it's cash in his pocket. Like I said, more power to him.

Consider directing your responses elsewhere, cause it seems your preaching to the choir here on some of your points and asking me things I can not speak for on others.

 

[Broncitis]

Your a pal,and hey your responsible for delivery!DEAL!
Do I have to include my brand new 35 spline Currie,it was $3,500.00,can I keep that please?
BANDIT

Nope, it won't "run" without it. $500 without the Currie I just got a new trailer I need to break in and will be criss-crossing much of the country over the next couple months, so delivery is not a problem. ;D

 

[bandit]

Nope, it won't "run" without it. $500 without the Currie I just got a new trailer I need to break in and will be criss-crossing much of the country over the next couple months, so delivery is not a problem. ;D

Oh hell alright,but I painted over the Currie emblems last night,and the little metal tag,I'll just pay you to take it,Pal!I dont know what the hell I'm doing awake,I got to get up at 0300 hrs!Ya know I used to run up to PA,about four times a week from here,great food,pretty women,and a fricken dear every half mile!My company was out of New Kingstown ,Pa.

 

[Broncitis]

Oh hell alright,but I painted over the Currie emblems last night,and the little metal tag,I'll just pay you to take it,Pal!I dont know what the hell I'm doing awake,I got to get up at 0300 hrs!Ya know I used to run up to PA,about four times a week from here,great food,pretty women,and a fricken dear every half mile!My company was out of New Kingstown ,Pa.

New Kingston near Carlisle? That's only about 15 minutes from my shop. My Dad's office used to be there, next to the post office near the Harley dealership.

Great! Then you can drop it off next time your up this way?

 

[kb6677]

for Dave

I will restate a point made a few days ago. I picked a poor choice of words to make a statement about my thoughts on a particular seller's early bronco on ebay. I do, however, believe most on the list would agree the particular eb that started this thread was lacking a bit on equiptment for the amount of money it had bid up to on ebay. I made the original post only because I find it an insult to our intelligence and the early bronco community in general when a poorly equipted/modified eb commands high prices. Cool for the used car salesman, cool for the values of other early broncos. That's all. I also relinquish any and all duties stated or implied as a member of Bronco Price Police-I am retired from pricing other people's stuff
Karl Bradley
NC
ebsss

 

[TwoHorses]

Here.... when you're feeling depressed about EB prices... think of the poor people who'd like to get into an Mustang....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ford...iewItemQQcategoryZ6236QQitemZ4608518382QQrdZ1

 

[DebosDave'72]

"As for value. It's pretty simple. Look at the list of goods and add it up, then look at the quality of the work and figure in a realistic amount of labor at $25-$50 per hour (or more depending on your area and connections). Now you get an idea what it would cost to build it. Then you have to see if it is close to what YOU would build. If so, then if you offer somewhere aorund 75% of that, you'd be way ahead of the game if you don't mind driving something you did not personally build."

This is a realistic value for who??? I guess if you were out on the West coast, say Portland and Seattle, you would bitch about everyone's prices (those two cities must be full of crooks)... They go for a lot more there than say Texas and Arizona... As to ebay, there are a lot of uneducated people out there who just want early broncos... this one though lacking in some extra equipment was a pretty nice looking ride. Whomever bought it will probably get quite a few compliments on it. Do I personally think it was worth the money it got, no, but that isn't my choice... The seller also doesn't really have a say in that, not in this case.. even if it was a shill bid, it doesn't sell unless there is someone willing to bid higher than the shill bids.... However, ebay is a nationwide market, and so there are going to be broncos that sell for higher on there than they would in a local market... there are also plenty that don't sell because of where they are.... The bronco value world is changing... I was just talking with Steve from BigSkyBroncos a little while back, wanting to trade my little 72 for a 76 project he had... he also took the time to inform me what my bronco was realistically worth... we didn't make a trade... (I had previously sold a 68 with inline 6, and plenty of body rust locally for $3800, while he said my 72 with a great body, uncut, hardly any rust, V8, D44 was worth less than that...) Just illustrates that the times are changing, and folks who have been in the bronco value world for a long time are going to need to adjust... the rarest part of any of our rides is a title that says 1966-1977 bronco. That is the part that is increasing the values... not the parts, and not the labor... those are ad-ons (and pretty easy to come by with the $$)...


Karl,

I don't have any problems with you, I just get frustrated with conversations like this. You have contributed so much to this board, and I hope you continue to do so... your knowledge on these rigs is priceless... I just feel like conversations like this one detract from our board... Isn't this forum here for technical help and the lot? Anyway, no offense, I hope we are cool...

Dave

 

[SaddleUp]

This is a realistic value for who??? I guess if you were out on the West coast, say Portland and Seattle, you would bitch about everyone's prices (those two cities must be full of crooks)... They go for a lot more there than say Texas and Arizona...

Sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about. There are deals in this area the same as anywhere else. Down in California the prices are outrageous but around Portland and Seattle there are too many decent EB's for them to sell for outrageous prices. I know where a couple are now that are in decent shape that I could get for what many here would consider really decent prices. (Between $5K and $8K) I also passed one up that I could have bought for about $2500 a year ago because it needed the floor panels replaced. (It may still be there) The first one I turned down in Portland because he wanted $3K for it and I felt it needed too much work for what I wanted. (I was looking for more upgrades like lockers, etc.) It was uncut though and would have made a great DD stocker. I paid just a hair over that for mine which I bought in Seattle (A few miles north of it actually) and it came with a lot of upgrades already done (Dana 44, PS, PB, Detroit Locker in back, Power Lock in front, and the list goes on with over $8K in reciepts that he gave me as well) that I was looking for (Nevermind that I have since replaced most of them). That was 2 years ago. (Give or take a week) I paid almost as much just for the 35 spline rearend I put under it though so the initial purchase price really wasn't significant.

BTW, I did buy a second one about 1 1/2 years ago for parts for $300 which I gave to my brother after I took what I wanted and he fixed it up for a Trail Rig.

 

[DebosDave'72]

Sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about. There are deals in this area the same as anywhere else. Down in California the prices are outrageous but around Portland and Seattle there are too many decent EB's for them to sell for outrageous prices. I know where a couple are now that are in decent shape that I could get for what many here would consider really decent prices. (Between $5K and $8K) I also passed one up that I could have bought for about $2500 a year ago because it needed the floor panels replaced. The first one I turned down in Portland because he wanted $3K for it and I felt it needed too much work for what I wanted. (I was looking for more upgrades like lockers, etc.) It was uncut though and would have made a great DD stocker. I paid just a hair over that for mine which I bought in Seattle (A few miles north of it actually) and it came with a lot of upgrades already done (Dana 44, PS, PB, Detroit Locker in back, Power Lock in front, and the list goes on with over $8K in reciepts that he gave me as well) that I was looking for (Nevermind that I have since replaced most of them). That was 2 years ago. (Give or take a week) I paid almost as much just for the 35 spline rearend I put under it though so the initial purchase price really wasn't significant.

BTW, I did buy a second one about 1 1/2 years ago for parts for $300 which I gave to my brother after I took what I wanted and he fixed it up for a Trail Rig.

Sorry if I am mistaken, I don't live out on the coast and was only basing my statement on what I have seen on Craigslist, and what I see after a quick scan through JBG's list... I am sure there are still good deals out there for anyone who keeps their eyes open...

Dave

 

[SaddleUp]

I am sure there are still good deals out there for anyone who keeps their eyes open...

I think that's the key for anyone and anywhere. I.E. Constantly watch for the right deal and then recognize it as such when it comes along. Patience is a really big part as well. (You have to be willing to walk away from a few deals before a good one comes up)