Tuning...learning

[bronco italiano]

My sons 240Z has a Rebello 3.0 with triple mikuni's PHH44's. Savage motor

 

[duffymahoney]

My sons 240Z has a Rebello 3.0 with triple mikuni's PHH44's. Savage motor

I a no expense spared 3.1L getting ready to go in. Should be 300hp to the wheels or so. Which will be a rocket ship of death

Rebello is the name in the Datsun world when it comes to motors. I probably have heard of your son.

 

[sprdv1]

So back to a Q-jet???

stock 2bbl

 

[bronco italiano]

I a no expense spared 3.1L getting ready to go in. Should be 300hp to the wheels or so. Which will be a rocket ship of death

Rebello is the name in the Datsun world when it comes to motors. I probably have heard of your son.

The 3.1 is a monster !!!!

 

[lars]

Circling back to the original post, Brian and I have both been dealing with tuning chipped A9xx ECU's with remote support, and I've done some myself with a tWeecer RT using the house brand software, then Binary Editor, then switching to a Quarterhorse and using Binary Editor and later TunerPro RT. All of which had/have nearly vertical learning curves with a bazillion tunable parameters. I managed to get my previous 5.0 running with EDIS pretty well though it was never perfect- perfect being a carburetor in coastal conditions with ideal temperatures, which meant that my carbureted engine often had issues as well.

Now there is Haltech and Emtron which are very expensive and appear to be aimed at the high end race car market, then Holley and Edelbrock which seem to be more mass market oriented with (possibly theoretical) limitations. Then fringe players like Pro-M. All appear to have their own control software for tuning.

So when using a chip on an A9xx ECU one is using agnostic tuning software (Binary Editor and TunerPro) that is at once very powerful and insanely difficult to learn. And given the adaptive limitations of the A9xx series, assuming one is using a "normal" strategy AKA GUFB, that means a lot of learning. How do the various aftermarket packages from Haltech, Emtron, Edelbrock, Holley, compare? I guess I should mention Pro-M as well, since if you ask the owner of the company his product has reinvented the wheel and left his competition in the (rubber) dust. Except that so far it hasn't.

Note that I didn't mention the Sniper and other throttle body systems, or carburetors. For those who prefer that, have a nice day and find another thread to comment on. With all due respect you have nothing to add. Thoughts from those who know this stuff?

 

[ba123]

I looked at all that stuff and decided to go with Megasquirt (tuning through Tunerstudio). I saw it as much more capable and you aren’t trying to tune a 30 yo computer either.

I’m not there yet and it might be difficult tuning but the Stinger PiMPxs I got does come with a base tune and it also has the ability to self tune to a point and then you tweak from there what you want.

Maybe not what you wanna hear but an option to just sell the ecu you have and go another route.

 

[rcmbronc]

I have found the Haltech and Holley EFI software very easy to navigate and tune with. The Holley is a bit more user friendly but both are quite easy to use. Factory ECU's have alot of data being processed in some cases. They are made top make a car run best they can in all situations. The aftermarket is not quite as complex but they do a great job with what is needed. They also are easier to add custom profiles and also extras like Turrbo, SC and other. I have also heard pretty good about Megasquirt but have not uses them. When I used Haltech I had a good local race shop that tunes them and sells them, He was very helpful with a basic tune and helping with further tunes. I think Holley seemed to self tune a bit better.

 

[duffymahoney]

Circling back to the original post, Brian and I have both been dealing with tuning chipped A9xx ECU's with remote support, and I've done some myself with a tWeecer RT using the house brand software, then Binary Editor, then switching to a Quarterhorse and using Binary Editor and later TunerPro RT. All of which had/have nearly vertical learning curves with a bazillion tunable parameters. I managed to get my previous 5.0 running with EDIS pretty well though it was never perfect- perfect being a carburetor in coastal conditions with ideal temperatures, which meant that my carbureted engine often had issues as well.

Now there is Haltech and Emtron which are very expensive and appear to be aimed at the high end race car market, then Holley and Edelbrock which seem to be more mass market oriented with (possibly theoretical) limitations. Then fringe players like Pro-M. All appear to have their own control software for tuning.

So when using a chip on an A9xx ECU one is using agnostic tuning software (Binary Editor and TunerPro) that is at once very powerful and insanely difficult to learn. And given the adaptive limitations of the A9xx series, assuming one is using a "normal" strategy AKA GUFB, that means a lot of learning. How do the various aftermarket packages from Haltech, Emtron, Edelbrock, Holley, compare? I guess I should mention Pro-M as well, since if you ask the owner of the company his product has reinvented the wheel and left his competition in the (rubber) dust. Except that so far it hasn't.

Note that I didn't mention the Sniper and other throttle body systems, or carburetors. For those who prefer that, have a nice day and find another thread to comment on. With all due respect you have nothing to add. Thoughts from those who know this stuff?

There are tons and tons of ecus brands, they seem to come and go regularly.

Maybe ask Chatgpt to tune your A9xx ECU? Lol

 

[ba123]

There are tons and tons of ecus brands, they seem to come and go regularly.

Maybe ask Chatgpt to tune your A9xx ECU? Lol

That’s really funny. I bet it would tell you that it’s tuned perfectly.

 

[duffymahoney]

That’s really funny. I bet it would tell you that it’s tuned perfectly.

Honestly it could probably tune it perfectly. If it was allowed to use the tuning software.

 

[ba123]

 

[bigmuddy]

Circling back to the original post, Brian and I have both been dealing with tuning chipped A9xx ECU's with remote support, and I've done some myself with a tWeecer RT using the house brand software, then Binary Editor, then switching to a Quarterhorse and using Binary Editor and later TunerPro RT. All of which had/have nearly vertical learning curves with a bazillion tunable parameters. I managed to get my previous 5.0 running with EDIS pretty well though it was never perfect- perfect being a carburetor in coastal conditions with ideal temperatures, which meant that my carbureted engine often had issues as well.

Now there is Haltech and Emtron which are very expensive and appear to be aimed at the high end race car market, then Holley and Edelbrock which seem to be more mass market oriented with (possibly theoretical) limitations. Then fringe players like Pro-M. All appear to have their own control software for tuning.

So when using a chip on an A9xx ECU one is using agnostic tuning software (Binary Editor and TunerPro) that is at once very powerful and insanely difficult to learn. And given the adaptive limitations of the A9xx series, assuming one is using a "normal" strategy AKA GUFB, that means a lot of learning. How do the various aftermarket packages from Haltech, Emtron, Edelbrock, Holley, compare? I guess I should mention Pro-M as well, since if you ask the owner of the company his product has reinvented the wheel and left his competition in the (rubber) dust. Except that so far it hasn't.

Note that I didn't mention the Sniper and other throttle body systems, or carburetors. For those who prefer that, have a nice day and find another thread to comment on. With all due respect you have nothing to add. Thoughts from those who know this stuff?

Just today I got a brand new quarterhorse set up to start playing with for my new engine install. To be fair though I am going to lean on theEFIguy to help me along...

 

[nvrstuk]

...and with ANY of these the farther you get from a "base tune" for a 5.0 the more tuning it needs.

I only have a little more than 50% more cubes that need filling than the stock ECU was ever designed to calculate algorithms for. Course there's a lot more to Tuning than adding "50%" more fuel to make it work.

This is where you start and continue to have trouble for tuneability issues. A 5.0 with radical cam, higher compression, better flowing heads is spot on easy compared to large strokers.

Anyway, will keep everyone in the loop when I do the install later this year.

 

[nvrstuk]

There are tons and tons of ecus brands, they seem to come and go regularly.

Maybe ask Chatgpt to tune your A9xx ECU? Lol

"...come and go regularly." That is the problem. I tried Holley's Projection back in the early '90's and I'm still trying more types and it's 32+ yrs later...

 

[nvrstuk]

Question for guys that know about more tuning than I.... eplanation first, then question.

How well can an engine run without a TPS voltage signal?

Here's my latest. Ran fine 3 days ago, Clint who wrote several engine tuning software programs logged in and helped me get my BE to read the software in my computer. Thanks Clint!

Ran fine afterwards.

Immediately ran 4 datalogs for my new tuner and he said the TPS voltage didn't show in the logs...just stuck and never moved. The TPS voltage showed in other datalogs from days before.

Engine still ran fine.

Since the tuner said the TPS on the datalogs was stuck and never moved he thought the ECU wasn't getting any TPS command. Well, I step on the gas and it must be getting a signal because when the throttle plate opens up the engine doesn't bog and it takes off. How can it run w/o TPS signal right?

If I disconnect the TPS plug and step on the gas it bogs and barely goes and trys to backfire slightly.

Here's my question. Can the engine run "good" w/o the ECU getting a signal from the TPS? I don't think so , my tuner says he has seen it happen. HOW can it??

Anyway, that's today's question. lol

Why is this taking soooooo long... (maybe because my new tuner has Covid)?

 

[ba123]

I think there is more to it than that...

Do you have a MAF? If so, then that's gotta play a huge role as it measures the amount of air coming in and adjusts the fuel. Either way, you're still opening your throttle and air is still getting in when you open it and you still have 02 sensors measuring your mixture coming out the exhaust. Might just run lean with the incorrect signal.

It must be giving something though if it runs like crap unplugged.

 

[nvrstuk]

MAF yes. Agree that the ecu must be receiving some signal (or exactly what it's supposed to ) because it runs like crap with the tps unplugged.

Engine runs as it should with the tps connected. Like I mentioned, tuner thinks the ecu is not receiving a signal because the datalog is not recording it.

Only question is can it run "properly" w/o the tps signal?

Obviously there is a tune designed to run the vehicle in the ecu.
That tune doesn't run the engine on its own. That tune does its thing when sensors tell IT certain things have changed.
O2, MA, IAT, etc, etc, and TPS inputs.

If these sensors aren't sending signals to the ecu then it can't command spark & fuel changes.

To me (rookie on ecu algorithms) , I believe the ecu must receive a signal from the tps at all times to command the engine to supply more fuel when you open the throttle just like an accelerator pump. Open the throttle slowly and you don't need that extra shot of fuel to prevent the bog (especiallyw/o a load).

Anyway, when I get 15 min today I will pull the ecu and check the voltage on the harness pins #46 & 47 (pin 26 is in there too but?) when moving the throttle plates w/key on. Just like on my trans controller currently shows, I should see btw 1v & 5v.

I believe it will even tho it's now not showing on the datalog (BE software).

 

[ssray]

I’ve learned there are tables that work in transitions for enrichment or leaning and the ECM takes cues from throttle moves into account for these along with other info. Wound make sense that the engine would bog with the TPS unplugged. Also used for throttle position for transmission functions and ABS and more on the newer vehicles. If your transmission has been functioning reasonably well it may also suggest that the TPS is fine.

Somewhere in any of your software that logging functions need to be enabled? Only wild ass guess I would have.

Covid in the ECM?

P.S. I see you’ve already gotten there! Maybe something simple …just takes finding it.

 

[lars]

MAF yes. Agree that the ecu must be receiving some signal (or exactly what it's supposed to ) because it runs like crap with the tps unplugged.

Engine runs as it should with the tps connected. Like I mentioned, tuner thinks the ecu is not receiving a signal because the datalog is not recording it.

Only question is can it run "properly" w/o the tps signal?

Obviously there is a tune designed to run the vehicle in the ecu.
That tune doesn't run the engine on its own. That tune does its thing when sensors tell IT certain things have changed.
O2, MA, IAT, etc, etc, and TPS inputs.

If these sensors aren't sending signals to the ecu then it can't command spark & fuel changes.

To me (rookie on ecu algorithms) , I believe the ecu must receive a signal from the tps at all times to command the engine to supply more fuel when you open the throttle just like an accelerator pump. Open the throttle slowly and you don't need that extra shot of fuel to prevent the bog (especiallyw/o a load).

Anyway, when I get 15 min today I will pull the ecu and check the voltage on the harness pins #46 & 47 (pin 26 is in there too but?) when moving the throttle plates w/key on. Just like on my trans controller currently shows, I should see btw 1v & 5v.

I believe it will even tho it's now not showing on the datalog (BE software).

Brian, keep in mind that you can't pull the ECU and measure across pins 46 and 26 in the harness connector because it's the ECU that's putting power on pin 46.

In order to measure directly that the ECU is getting a TPS voltage signal the most straightforward way to do it is to get a couple of sewing needles. Shove them through the insulation on the wires emerging from said pins (yes, sounds awful but you can seal the holes later with some liquid insulation). Clip the leads from your voltmeter to the pins. Turn key on. Check voltmeter, with throttle closed it should show 0.95-ish volts. Wide open throttle, it should rise to 4.5-ish.

 

[nvrstuk]

BUT the input to the ECU coming FROM the TPS is what I want to measure and it should be 1.0-5V appr.

Somewhere/somehow the ECU receives the tps signal (in voltage), that's what I want to measure and I"m only thinking of it that way because I was running my 4r70 TPS voltage direct from TPS and that was b4 I went with the ECU and EDIS.

I was/am guessing that I spliced into the original TPS wiring to connect it to my ECU but maybe that is not the case... lol

You need a break, can you hear your phone ringing yet???