Tying seats to Roll Bar

[nvrstuk]

Then for safety of your wife and kids a GOOD cage is necessary. But probably needed more often and almost TOTALLY ignored by most mall crawler Broncos and it makes me shudder is the LACK of high back bucket seats in front and rear. If your kids aren't in car seats they NEED to have their necks and backs protected. That Bronco rear seat I rode around in for 40,000 miles is waiting to maim your passengers.

Think of how many rear end collisions there are compared to complete roll overs or end over enders!!!

Ask anybody who's been in a rear end accident 5, 10, or 20 yrs down the road if their neck or backs still hurt daily! Everyone I know that has been rear ended from years back is still suffering. Get good seats, 3 pt shoulder harnesses- 2 point belts save lives, 3 point belts save your face and your life!

Have fun with your new Bronco!

 

[Steve83]

All of this iron came out of a TJ last week…

All of that weight above the original CG just makes the vehicle MORE LIKELY to roll over.

Looks like this.

That looks like a really good egg-slicer. Imagine if its legs punched through the rusty floor in a roll. The weight of the frame/engine/trans/suspension would have pushed the seats/belts down against the cage bars.

My cage is tied to my body and so what if my seats are too, no?

It's extremely dangerous, if you were ever in a situation to need the cage.

...cage to frame as well as belts is a “duh” non discussion.

How does keeping the frame close to you & your passengers make anyone safer?

...is it needed in a mostly street application is more my question.

None of the cages shown in this thread so far help in any way on the street.

I don’t want to end up like @Steve83 ’s picture though.

Then wrap the cage around the occupants; attach all the seats & belts to the cage, and DON'T attach the cage to the body or frame any more than is necessary to keep it from sliding/squeaking.

I just want to keep my family relatively safe if someone hits us.

None of the cages shown so far will accomplish that. Nerf bars attached to the frame & modern chairs with integral belts would be better.

 

[ssray]

@nvrstuk Good points…Years back my folks, sister and her boy were rear ended just west of Burlington CO on I70 when a ground blizzard hit that area. Chain reaction accident when some traffic slowed and others weren’t paying attention. Dad got stopped in time behind a truck, a truck behind them that couldn’t stop went to the shoulder and barely missed them. (They found some scrapes later on the right side where it had actually brushed them) The next car didn’t get stopped and rear ended them. They had an 87 Bonniville that had headrests or high back seats. Both seats slipped the ratchets and ended up laying down. Both were sore for a while but no lasting effect. My nephew who was in the back seat start crying but seemed to be ok so they just thought he was scared. When he stared complaining about his head they found a bump and discovered he’d been hit by the mirror which had popped off the windshield. The car was still drivable, rear end damage and they may have had to tape up a tail light with some red to get home. Without neck support it could of been a lot worse!

 

[Yeller]

@Steve83 let us see what your 1st hand experience shows, all we see is a lot of words always telling everyone they are doing it wrong. No internet pics or links unless they are you doing stuff, things you have built, things you have crashed.

 

[nvrstuk]

Yeah SSRay...bad stuff happens.

The only accident I've been in was when I was turning into my driveway off our 50mph County road and the lady in the suicide door T-bird was estimated at doing 65mph rear ended me as I was turning and rolled me thru my fence into our pasture. I had Celica seats in frt and I was fine-not even sore. Logging (tow) chain was wrapped around my strg column, large tool box on the floor at my feet and my German short-haired was covered in Castol20w-50!

So I installed fully reclining buckets in the rear for the kids (they loved to sleep in them with the tailgate open when camping) and everything is anchored to the floor or cage so it can't fly around

 

[jba6555]

None of the cages shown so far will accomplish that. Nerf bars attached to the frame & modern chairs with integral belts would be better.

You dont think a bailie bilt family cage will help keep my family safe on the road?

 

[nvrstuk]

You dont think a bailie bilt family cage will help keep my family safe on the road?

I have no doubt it will. I've seen them up close. Quality product!

 

[Steve83]

let us see what your 1st hand experience show

I don't even know what that means. I've never had an out-of-body experience, so ALL my experiences are 1st-hand, and I've told you my opinions, which are based on my experiences.

all we see is a lot of words

This is a DISCUSSION FORUM - it's all words. Yours are words, too, remember? What else would you expect to see here? It's not SnapChat or Twitter.

always telling everyone they are doing it wrong.

%) Where are you looking that you see me saying anyone is wrong? Look in this thread - not one time (until this sentence right now) saying anyone is wrong. So you're wrong about that, but that's the first time. Look back at YOUR posts, Mr. Pot...

No internet pics or links unless they are you doing stuff, things you have built, things you have crashed.

Are you implying that no one is allowed to post in a thread about cages unless he has wrecked something he built? That seems like the LAST person I'd want advise from. And where are YOUR qualifying pics & videos of YOU building, wheeling, & wrecking? Have you ever rolled anything? LEAD BY EXAMPLE - don't ask me to post up until YOU have.

But here's something I've rolled:

1983 Ford Bronco Rollover picture | SuperMotors.net

roll_tnt_f.jpg The LHR tire dug in and flipped me & the trailer, which broke loose and slid to a stop on the car, whose wheels were still on the bed of the trailer. (Upside down.) There's still some grass caught between the LHR tire & rim. For a 45MPH barrel roll in a "stock" truck, I'd say...

www.supermotors.net

Its "cage" was engineered & built by Ford, and it worked well enough for me to walk away, and for it to be driven away (by my father). So I replaced it with another, and I'm still driving it. Now, I have 3 of them, and 4 other Ford vehicles, each of which is certified safe to roll by the engineers, Ford, & DOT/NHTSA. If I wanted to build my own vehicles or cages, I'd buy Jeeps.

You dont think a bailie bilt family cage will help keep my family safe on the road?

You said you're not interested in rollover protection, because you don't plan to go off-road & roll. So what does that leave? Getting rear-ended like nvrstuk's story? Doing the rear-ending, like the car that hit him? Side impacts? Look at the BB cage (which I'm certain is extremely well-built, having seen a few 1st-hand). It wouldn't stop anything from coming into the passenger area from the back, front, sides, or bottom. It's ONLY built to hold the truck off the floor inverted (and I'm sure it does that WELL, if the floor doesn't give way). So what on-road situation do YOU think it will protect you or your family from? If you install it, but never go off-road, all you've done is make the vehicle more top-heavy, which increases the chances of it rolling over. But that's the only way that cage will protect you, because that's what it's designed for.

 

[Yeller]

You Asked Rokit, me, rolling, been posted before. As for building there’s a few in my signature. So there ya go.

 

[hossbronco]

I’m certainly not trying to step into an argument here, but there are few on this site more experienced than Yeller. I generally take his advice as gospel, though I’m not afraid to challenge him a little so I can learn. That’s not to take away from anyone else’s experiences.

BTW, someone was asking about cages on Facebook and I posted that one of my favorites was ProtoFab. They will also tie your seats into your cage if desired, and they have great customer service. Anyway, on their website they have these seat belt bungs that are made by Summit Machine that look like a really good tie-in point for seat belts, and they’re designed to prevent the bung from pulling through the tubing. It seems much better than just welding on some tabs.

https://protofab4x4.com/product/4198/

 

[jba6555]

You said you're not interested in rollover protection, because you don't plan to go off-road & roll. So what does that leave? Getting rear-ended like nvrstuk's story? Doing the rear-ending, like the car that hit him? Side impacts? Look at the BB cage (which I'm certain is extremely well-built, having seen a few 1st-hand). It wouldn't stop anything from coming into the passenger area from the back, front, sides, or bottom. It's ONLY built to hold the truck off the floor inverted (and I'm sure it does that WELL, if the floor doesn't give way). So what on-road situation do YOU think it will protect you or your family from? If you install it, but never go off-road, all you've done is make the vehicle more top-heavy, which increases the chances of it rolling over. But that's the only way that cage will protect you, because that's what it's designed for.

What is your angle here, Steve? I really don't understand. You seem to say that a roll cage makes your vehicle less safe to drive on the street, insinuating that rollovers are not an issue driving around town. Then you post a picture of a Bronco that you rolled going 45mph (to me that's around town speed) and then tout how the roll cage in it protected you. Do you only drive an EB on trails? and just drive newer Broncos on the street? or do you have an EB without a cage for city driving? I am legitimately curious and not trying to be a jerk (It's difficult to not sound like a jerk on forums). I am fully aware that driving an EB in general is making unwise safety decisions. I could just drive my expedition for everything and be much safer... but we wouldn't be on this forum if we didn't like driving EBs.

 

[jamesroney]

There is one thing that I have learned in my 30 years of operations, site, and safety experience.

There is no such thing as "safe" and there is no single definition of "safety." As you investigate incidents, and evaluate accidents, safety distills down to risk. If an activity has an acceptable risk, it is considered "safe." Unless there is an alternative method of achieving the goals that has less risk. Then the method with less risk is considered "safer" which leaves the activity with an acceptable risk as "unsafe."

I know it is idiotic, and circular...but it applies here. The little dispute between @Steve83 and @Yeller is almost refreshing to me...when I think back to those exact same arguments in our OSHA investigation after an unintended initiation in our ordnance facility. (which allowed me to "volunteer" to be the Kaizen Event Champion for our plant wide safety risk program.)

Nevertheless, we can't get around our own ideas and notions about safety. Have you noticed that there are no seat belts on a motorcycle? But we do have stickers and warning labels on everything. Some riding lawn mowers do not have ROPS, but riding tractors must have ROPS. In a major aircraft crash, the majority of objects in the passenger compartment are reduced to the size of a quarter. In a minor aircraft crash, your seat belt can secure you in an area near your seat. So why can't the plane land with me sitting on the toilet? For the record, the flight attendant is NOT primarily there for my safety. The flight attendant is primarily there to get me a beer. (... that's my observation based on time and motion study.)

So yes...what is safe for you might not be safe for me. And what is acceptable risk to you may not be the same as acceptable risk to me. And people with a lot of relevant experience, wisdom, and scars are often the most myopic as it pertains to the theoretical.

Just remember: Beach Sand contains silica. A chemical, known to the State of California, to cause cancer, birth defects, or other reproductive harm.

...and I've seen a few of those Bailie cages. I think they are a great improvement to safety in an Early Bronco.

And if you are driving Westbound in the right lane on Interstate 80 at Antelope Road, on your way to the Rubicon, and a 1989 Camaro IROC merges onto the freeway in excess of 100MPH and provides you with a 4000 lb suppository...you will be thankful that you have that roll cage. The unique tread pattern of a BFG Radial Mud Terrain T/A impressed into the hood, cowl and windshield of the IROC will tell you the acceleration vector into the rear axle. (hint...it is vertical) Turns out that those CHP weaving traffic breaks are actually kinda useful. But closing the highway for a couple of hours to sweep up 500 rounds of .22LR helps too.

 

[Speedrdr]

Right on, James! While I’ve never been in an MVA in an EB, I have experienced a barrel roll followed by an immediate end over in a ‘91 Toyota SR5 4X4 without the benefit of either a roll bar or roll cage. The only thing unbent was the tailgate and the only injury was I got a broken rib. My son was driving on a 2 week old learner’s permit and T-boned a car that turned in front of him. Impact at 57 MPH. do I wish there was a roll bar and/or an in cab cage? You better believe it.
Said all that to say that I believe that a properly built and installed system does give some protection and the ‘77 I’m restoring (to half cab) will have in cab bars AND in bed bars.

Randy

 

[Yeller]

Well said @jamesroney !!!

No contest here I just like seeing what other folks are doing to develop their ideas. I might be wrong and it gives me the opportunity to learn.

 

[sprdv1]

having been the guy in the jeep and done several of the rolls shown in the other videos I am a huge proponent of cages, seats and belts being imperative safety gear. With everything being of quality design, materials and equipment I still stand by my comments above.

I'm surprised @sprdv1 hasn't posted the evidence LOL

slow these days brother.. lol

 

[okorangebrnco]

My Bailie family custom is NOT tied to the frame nor my seats. I cruise around with my kids all the time. My daughter has a MasterCraft Mini Me seat mounted to a separate seat frame in the rear. The front seats are similar in they have an independent seat frame as well. Yeller is a very close friend and generally does more controlled stupid stuff in one day than most consider in 10 years. Gordon's products are the most simplistic yet effective design. I have beautiful example of what a cage should and should not do in a Bronco sitting next to my Bronco in my shop. Had the cage crossed the frame and body mounts as the Bailie cage, the injuries and damage would have been far less. If you take into account the people such as Yeller that do the unthinkable for a living, it should put all worry to ease. the topic of should or should not with cages and their design are beaten to death too frequently. to each his own. In today's world, it is not the roll over I worry about, it is the front, rear, and side impacts that scare me. All the forces have to go some where.

 

[Steve83]

What is your angle here, Steve?

Ummm... Just discussing. I don't really have an "angle". I like seeing Broncos anywhere, so I like helping keep people driving them.

You seem to say that a roll cage makes your vehicle less safe to drive on the street...

Then let me clear that up: adding ANY weight (cage or otherwise) above, or doing ANYTHING to raise, the factory CG makes any vehicle less-safe (more likely to roll) on-road or off-.

...insinuating that rollovers are not an issue driving around town.

They're not nearly as LIKELY on public roads, which have been graded for Priuses & Corvettes. Rollovers are NOT the most-common type of auto accident, and all US production vehicles designed since '75 have been rollover-rated, so even in the off-chance that they roll, they're relatively safe (UNTIL they get modified by non-engineers). So since you said you're not concerned about rolling because you're driving mostly on-road, I don't see how any pre-built cage could benefit you in any way. I can only see disadvantages for you, based on your description of how you plan to use the truck.

...you rolled going 45mph (to me that's around town speed) and then tout how the roll cage in it protected you.

Maybe it wasn't apparent (check the PREVious & NEXT several pics in that photo album), but I was towing a LONG trailer with a HEAVY car loaded wrong (my fault). That's what induced the progressive sway that led to my Bronco sliding off the pavement, which is where a tire caught & flipped it (sliding sideways in dirt). It didn't roll because it was topheavy, or because I was driving on a tilt (it was the median of an in-town interstate loop), or because I was driving recklessly or fast.

And the cage I mentioned was the one that Ford designed into the body - not some bolt-in plumbing experiment. That's why I said it was Ford/DOT/NHTSA-certified.

Do you only drive an EB on trails?

I've driven eBs on trails, and on-highway at highway speeds (OK, maybe a little higher ), and around town. But I don't own one currently, and don't particularly want one. They're too small & old. But this is one I built from the ground up for a friend (with some things done my way, and some things his):

(click this text)


These are some of my current vehicles, and all of these get driven on-road & off-.

(click this text)

It's difficult to not sound like a jerk on forums.

Tell me about it! I get accused of it all the time!

...it is the front, rear, and side impacts that scare me. All the forces have to go some where.

That's what I'm talking about - most cages (including Gordon's) have no strength down low, parallel to the ground/floor, which is what's needed most-often in an on-road wreck. The last safety component added to Broncos (before the ~26-year pause in the name's use) was the side-impact beam in the door. Wanna guess where Ford put it? As LOW in the door as possible (so it wouldn't raise the CG much, if at all). What does that say to you (anyone reading this)? Where is that component in the cage you're considering for (or that's already installed in) your eB?

 

[toddz69]

I've driven eBs on trails, and on-highway at highway speeds (OK, maybe a little higher ), and around town. But I don't own one currently, and don't particularly want one.

(click this text)


That's what I'm talking about - most cages (including Gordon's) have no strength down low, parallel to the ground/floor, which is what's needed most-often in an on-road wreck. The last safety component added to Broncos (before the ~26-year pause in the name's use) was the side-impact beam in the door. Wanna guess where Ford put it? As LOW in the door as possible (so it wouldn't raise the CG much, if at all). What does that say to you (anyone reading this)? Where is that component in the cage you're considering for (or that's already installed in) your eB?

What happened to that blue '74 you owned? I was following along on your repairs on that one.

In reading this thread, I just realized that my custom rockers (either 3/16" or 1/4" thick) could count as a low-mount intrusion/side-impact beam against most cars these days...and I'm pretty sure it's lower than the vehicle's CG. No wonder my truck handles so well!

Todd Z.

 

[Steve83]

What happened to that blue '74 you owned?

I never owned that POS - it was just a local truck I was working on. Fortunately, the owner wised-up a year ago & got rid of it (which is what he originally told me he was going to do immediately after the first repairs I did).

(click this text)

I just realized that my custom rockers (either 3/16" or 1/4" thick) could count as a low-mount intrusion/side-impact beam against most cars these days.

Only if there are braces across the frame between the nerf bars' mounting areas. If not, they'll just fold the frame around the trans & t-case, and the car will still come inside the cab.

 

[toddz69]

Only if there are braces across the frame between the nerf bars' mounting areas. If not, they'll just fold the frame around the trans & t-case, and the car will still come inside the cab.

Yeah - that's likely true - I'll need to see where they lie relative to the front body mount and a brace I have at that back. In any case, it would be a slight improvement over stock in that area.

Todd Z.