WARNING: Orange Antifreeze with Copper Radiators

[EricLar80]

Hey Guys,

I think this has been mentioned before, now that I searched for it, but I was unaware... DONT USE THE ORANGE RADIATOR FLUID IF YOU HAVE A COPPER RADIATOR!

I recently decided to change out my cam from the FMS E303 to Crane Cam 444211, so that involves removing the radiator & etc. When I was taking out the radiator, I noticed a little leakage, ok no problem, but once I got it out I noticed the whole thing was trashed. Most of the fins along the bottom are that blue-green color and basically just wipe away; they disintegrated.

I bought this radiator (4 core) new from James Duff around the year 2000. I was running the green stuff, but a few years ago I switched to the orange stuff because it is supposed to last longer. Mind you, I have only put maybe 3000 miles on the engine in that past few years, so forget the 150k mileage they say it should work...

So, when I saw this corrosion, I poked around on the net, and I found some sites that say not to use the orange stuff with copper (and some plastics, as you see there is problems with GM's Dexcool)

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/sub_care_sat/1272436.html
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/08/gm_dexcool.html

They say it messes with the lead in the system, but I think there is something with the copper as well because copper is relatively corrosion resistant.

BTW - looks like you want something borate free when you are using aluminum, such as in an intake manifold. However, make sure that it has phosphates to protect the aluminum.

Anyway, looks like I'll be shopping around for a new radiator. And I'll be going back to the green stuff, I don't care if the neighbor's cat wants to drink it...

If anybody wants to see pictures, let me know, I can probably snap a few.

 

[broncomaster]

Good advice, did not consider using because of cost.

 

[scotts77]

Sorry to hear about that. Off subject, why did you decide to change from the FMS E code cam. I'm using one as part of my build. Did you not like it ?

 

[72Sport]

I thought this link was interesting also: http://www.getahelmet.com/jeeps/maint/dexcool/

I have been using Prestone's version of DexCool since 7/02 with no problems. I changed because Edelbroke said to use a sulfite free coolant with their water pump. I pulled the water pump off briefly last year and noticed no corrosion either in the copper brass radiator, Edlebrock intake or anywhere else. I thought I had a radiator problem so I had it pressure checked. It was ok and had no leaks. The only problem was a wimpy backing plate on the back of the Edlebrock water pump which wee-ed coolant at high rpm through the backing plate gasket when the backing plate flexed at the bottom.

I have kept the system full. Used only distilled water. I checked the voltage as stated in the above link and it read .126 volts. I have seen none of the problems as stated in the other links or articles I have read.

The question is will I continue to use it? It is about 5 years old now.

 

[EricLar80]

Sorry to hear about that. Off subject, why did you decide to change from the FMS E code cam. I'm using one as part of my build. Did you not like it ?

I decided to go with the other cam because I was having low-end problems; basically it would idle a little rough when in drive, and it was a dog at low rpms. It's great above 1900 rpm, but I think its better suited for manual transmissions (at least), and even more suited in car which has smaller tires and lower weight, so it can gain rpm's quickly. I read of some other people having problems with low-end and the 444211 cam fixed the problems. However, I think some Bronco owners have used the E303 without problems...%)

If you still need to cam, I'll have one up for sale in a week or so, it has about 3000k miles. Seems like the mustang crowd likes them a lot, so the resale is pretty good.

 

[EricLar80]

I thought this link was interesting also: I have kept the system full. Used....corrosionsource.com/handbook/galv_series.htm), whereas the test strips are more for the cooling ability of the antifreeze, I believe. Typically you need a difference of .1 V (or greater) for galvanic corrosion to be much of a problem - anything above .2 and say bye-bye. The only reason I know is that I am almost done with a masters in Materials Science, with corrosion being a large part of that degree; what I know now would have been nice to know a few years ago... I am thinking of testing the corroded parts for sulfate to confirm, but at this point it doesn't really matter.

That brings me to another point, the corrosion inhibitors are really the most important reason to change the fluid, not for the anti-freeze properties. The anti-freeze properties don't really wear out, the inhibitors do. Once they begin to wear out, the parts are only partially protected. When you have something partially protected, that means the non-protected section is much more reactive than the protected zone, thereby creating a galvanic cell.

The aluminum and steel parts that I have seen so far have not shown any problems with corrosion, but I have yet to look at the impeller on the water pump. I'll update when I know more.

Thanks for the article.

 

[blubuckaroo]

I've bought two of those Duff radiators. The first lasted about 18 months. Bought a so-called improved one from Duff with the same results. (sucker!) All had corroded headers. Went to my local radiator shop for a three core Harrison with offset tubes. Works and fits into the car much better. It's been there for three years now. We'll see.