water 4 gas anyone done it yet

[00gyrhed]

guys think of it this way. you take water and separate it. where does the engergy come from. electricity. You have to generate electricity by running your engine. It is the basically a perpetual motion scam.

split water into oxygen and hydrogen in the exact ratio it combines to form water. pipe the exhaust to the ball glass jar so you do not have to add water. now where does all this energy come from to drive the car. It takes more energy to split water into H2 and O2 than you get back when you burn it. There is research into catalyst that have shown to lower the threshold but the key to making it work is $. you have to have a cheaper scource of electricity to split the water molecule than the fuel costs to run the vehicle. Your alternator is not a cheaper scource.

If this guy has the answer why does he run a hybrid that needs gasoline??

Unique electrolisis process?? What you need is a real live chemical engineering thermodynamics phd to look at this guys claims. If his claims were true he would be a millionare right now and would be selling these hoaky little kits. Come on. Auto manufacturers would have scooped it up. Heck the oil companies would pay him billions just to go away, but no you can buy a kit with a Ball canning jar on the internet for just a few dollars. The cost isn't even in line with the claimed savings. Pays back overnight.

The energy to split the water has to come from some where, and you don't get it back when you burn it in an engine. An engine is like a 75% waste. Energy leaves the ssytem through the radiator, exhaust, radiates from the block in addition to friction lossses goin to the rear wheels.

Also this gas mixture of HHO is extremely explosive. UV light will set it off.

Basically when something is too good to be true it insn't. There are no perpetual motion machines, and thats what this is. Engines waste tons of heat, but all the water is recoverable at the tailpipe. It could be condensed with enough tail pipe and collected back to the jar. Where do you make up all the wasted energy??

 

[Dave]

I thought this was interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mypMAsi92TE&feature=related

That is a legitimate machine that plugs into a 220 VAC 50 amp circuit. Your charging system would have to produce about 700 AMPs. Plus it would be hard to fit an electrolysis cell that big under you hood. All of the scammers like to use that video as "proof" that the concept works.

I think I'll start selling a hydroelectric turbine that fits on your toilet to generate electricity everytime you flush. I'll use a video of Hoover Damn as proof of concept. Don't get scammed.

 

[wildbill]

Cool fish oil;D Edelbrock dose make a water injector as I ran one on my wifes mustang (351C 4V) as it helped stop the ping and gas milage went up to a grate 13 MPG that is with super. I only got about 12 befor it used about 1 gal. to a tank of gas and cost about 80.00 back in the mid 80's. This fish oil will get wild with gas at 3.80 a gal good luck and have fun. Bill %) ;D

 

[Naildriver111]

That is a legitimate machine that plugs into a 220 VAC 50 amp circuit. Your charging system would have to produce about 700 AMPs. Plus it would be hard to fit an electrolysis cell that big under you hood. All of the scammers like to use that video as "proof" that the concept works.

I don't want it under my hood, but I would like to have it in my shop.

 

[michael084]

Let us know how it works. I have read a lot of good and bad about this system. People swear by them.

 

[lonesouth]

Suppose for a second that the end game is not to burn the hydrogen, but to provide more oxygen to allow a more complete burn of the gasoline in the combustion chamber. We all know that our cars do not completely burn all the gas available. Nitrous, for example, does not burn. It breaks down at high temperatures into one Nitrogen and two Oxygen molecules and the oxygen allows more gas to burn. If the hydrogen generator, thus falsely named, works this way, the increased efficiency of the combustion cycle could make up for the parasitic loss due to increased use of the alternator. Just my rambling thoughts...

 

[trailpsycho]

I think the general idea is that your engine is inefficient. You are generating excess current in your alternator already. If you can develop a set of electrodes, and this is the key, that can produce the Brown's gas (its not really hydrogen) more efficiently....and I believe thats what some of these folks claim to have done...made it more efficient. Then it should be able to be used to augment conventional fuels. How much gas do you save?...that would depend on the amount of gas you produce, which is related to current, etc. Anyone who works with gas, knows that a very tiny amount of gas can make a large amount of bubbles in a solution. Thats why they try to show you units that produce alot of bubbles. In reality, I dont know how much gas you really need to produce.

I dont think any of you would say that electrolysis as a means of rust removal is a scam, would you. It works, it does draw some current...usually a car charger is used to provide that current, in fact. They are doing the same thing here. The electrodes in rust removal are consumed...forming and contributing to the electrolytes in the aqueous solution. My problem with these kits is what metals are they using? How long will their electrodes last?

These arent zero point energy devices. They take the available, might even call it wasted current in our auto electrical systems and use it for the electrolysis. One of the systems I was looking at a few weeks ago claimed that it operated between 5 and 15 amps...a decent amount of current, but not much more than a serious car amplifier...so, like I said, I will wait till I can see, touch and hear it run. Its not a "solution" but it may help get back a little of what we waste.

And if you reallydo or dont believe it, build one, video tape it and show us it working or not working. Lots of folks dont believe different suspension configs will work well, until they see them perform. Lots of people wouldnt believe you could talk to someone through a peiece of plastic either...I mean, where are their voices coming from anyway...

As a chemist, trust me, you can pack alot of energy into a very small amount of physical material.

There are a plethora of reasons car manufacturers dont want to be associated with add ons...safety, long-term dependability, liability. Too, I think there are enough people out there, at this point, who are not trying to sell you this technology, but showing that it works and how it works, that there is probably something to it...but it wont replace your $4/gal gas...its really not meant to.

 

[broncorick]

I know how water for gas should work. We should trade water, wheat, etc for oil. We have a huge capacity for food production. Potable water will soon be a valuable resource as well as a large part of the world does not even have drinking water in adequate supplies. I saw one picture where a gas station in the middle east was using gas to clean the dust off of the drive as it was cheaper that water!!

 

[00gyrhed]

"As a chemist, trust me, you can pack alot of energy into a very small amount of physical material."

Where did you go to school? Did you take P-chem? Are you familiar with the laws of thermpodynamics? Scams use testimonials to sell. People are easy to fool and often refuse to believe they could have been ripped off. Real live testing labs verify results.

Perpetual motion machines do not work.

You can not use your car's alternator to split water while making enough hydrogen to drive the car and still split more water to keep the cycle going. If you could we wouldn't need the power companies, or the oil companies. Break this thing down to the base cyle. No gasoline. If it works it doesn't need gasoline. Water is split with electricity. The gas is burned. The burning gas drives the vehicle, drives the alternator, and produces a lot of heat that is dissapated through the radiator and out the tailpipe. The water is basically 100% recoverable. It could be condensed in an exchanger and recycled back to the generator. Now given that senario where is the energy coming from th drive the car. Same water, no other energy is entering the system but a lot seems to be leaving. Can't happen.

Now you can make hydrogen and store it and use it to run the car. You could also use batteries in the car that you charged every night to aid in splitting the water while you drive. But you can not use the alternator that is driven by the gas you are making to split more water while still driving the powering the car.

 

[Dave]

As a chemist, trust me, you can pack alot of energy into a very small amount of physical material.

E=MC(squared) Cold Fusion man! That where the energy is coming from! ;D ;D ;D

 

[Bronchole]

I've been looking in to this for a few days of my spare time now. I am as skeptical as most of you are but still want to research it. I am not interested in giving away any of my money to these guys though.

After reading the water 4 gas site I am reasonably sure that a majority of the information they sell you in their book pertains to ways of increasing your fuel economy that have NOTHING to do with burning HHO.

I further suspect that the majority of the fuel economy gained from the HHO cell comes from leaning out the total fuel mixture, not by burning a "hybrid" fuel of gas and HHO.

Still researching and trying to keep an open mind though.

Dan

 

[trailpsycho]

"As a chemist, trust me, you can pack alot of energy into a very small amount of physical material."

Where did you go to school? Did you take P-chem? Are you familiar with the laws of thermpodynamics? Scams use testimonials to sell. People are easy to fool and often refuse to believe they could have been ripped off. Real live testing labs verify results.

Perpetual motion machines do not work.

You can not use your car's alternator to split water while making enough hydrogen to drive the car and still split more water to keep the cycle going. If you could we wouldn't need the power companies, or the oil companies. Break this thing down to the base cyle. No gasoline. If it works it doesn't need gasoline. Water is split with electricity. The gas is burned. The burning gas drives the vehicle, drives the alternator, and produces a lot of heat that is dissapated through the radiator and out the tailpipe. The water is basically 100% recoverable. It could be condensed in an exchanger and recycled back to the generator. Now given that senario where is the energy coming from th drive the car. Same water, no other energy is entering the system but a lot seems to be leaving. Can't happen.

Now you can make hydrogen and store it and use it to run the car. You could also use batteries in the car that you charged every night to aid in splitting the water while you drive. But you can not use the alternator that is driven by the gas you are making to split more water while still driving the powering the car.

Please, lean your tone. What you describe is not what most of these devices claim. I have had plenty of physics, P-chem, thermodynamics, biology...I can send you my CV if you want. I am not talking about perpetual motion. Neither are most of these "scams". Have you read anything I've written. I dont purport them to work. I dont sell them. I am not affiliated. But as a "professional" scientist, I get paid to verify if something works before I give it credence or call it shit.

You really should look at some of the related sites to the 'hydrogen' cells, they arent claiming to run on water or provide perpetual motion. It sounds like you dont care what anyone says...so I guess it doesnt matter. Im open to checking it out scientifically...my background isnt in electronics or electrical engineering, but I have a very sound background in organic, physical and organometallic chemistry...and a skeptical but open mind.

 

[Bronchole]

E=MC(squared) Cold Fusion man! That where the energy is coming from! ;D ;D ;D

Actually, the relation to cold fusion was mentioned in a wiki paper I read researching this.

BTW, the one thing that I think of when I hear the arguments against this "technology" by thermodynamics guru's is that it takes equal or more energy to generate energy (or something like that). So how much energy is put in to an atomic bomb to get it to release it's energy? I think it is considerable less than what is released.

Food for thought.

Dan

 

[trailpsycho]

I've been looking in to this for a few days of my spare time now. I am as skeptical as most of you are but still want to research it. I am not interested in giving away any of my money to these guys though.

After reading the water 4 gas site I am reasonably sure that a majority of the information they sell you in their book pertains to ways of increasing your fuel economy that have NOTHING to do with burning HHO.

I further suspect that the majority of the fuel economy gained from the HHO cell comes from leaning out the total fuel mixture, not by burning a "hybrid" fuel of gas and HHO.

Still researching and trying to keep an open mind though.

Dan

Thats what I was saying a couple of posts ago. Dialogue is good.

 

[Skiddy]

I might have to borrow his truck;D


http://www.news9.com/global/story.asp?s=8543661


Device Claimed To Improve Gas Mileage

Posted: June 23, 2008 06:22 PM CDT

Updated: June 23, 2008 10:21 PM CDT





What would you say if you could increase your car's gas mileage by 50%, even 100%. A Broken Arrow car mechanic is a true believer in a fuel-cell technology that adds hydrogen to gasoline, which he says then burns more efficiently. News On 6's Steve Berg reports it's called the Hydro-Assist Fuel Cell.

Many have questions about whether it works. Randy Catlett says it does.

Randy Catlett has spent nearly 30 years as a car mechanic and knows a thing or two about cars.

"I've gone through 12 schools for General Motors on computer system on the cars, carburetors, fuel injections, diesels, rear ends, air conditionings, turbo's electrical," said Randy Catlett with Power Save Of America Inc.

This device though is one you probably haven't seen on a car It's called the Hydro-Assist Fuel Cell. It produces hydrogen gas, which is then fed into the fuel system via the regular car's air intake. When hydrogen is mixed with gasoline, Catlett says the gasoline burns a lot more efficiently. He says he's gotten as much as 50 mpg on his Ford pickup truck.

"Taking octane away, adding hydrogen in with it, which enriches that fuel mixture again," said Catlett.

If you think it has a too good to be true ring to it, you're not alone. Catlett understands there are a lot of skeptics.

So why isn't every car manufacturer putting something like this on every one of their vehicles? Catlett says if they made your vehicle go 120 miles say on a gallon of gas, big oil wouldn't like that.

"I won't get into the conspiracy theory issues on all that because that's not me. I just want to put a system on your vehicle that is not snake oil. We don't have to worry about the end result because we know that they're going to be there," said Catlett.

Catlett says the Hydro-Assist Fuel Cell is guaranteed to boost your gas mileage by 50% or the dealer will buy it back.

The inventor of the product, Dennis Lee, has his share of critics who claim he is a scam artist. Also, there are reports that he has been fined by the attorney general in several different states.

But, Catlett says if you don't believe the product works, you can come to the shop and drive his truck and judge for yourself.

For more information call (918) 951-0047.

 

[lonesouth]

I think maybe someone over on pirate may have done it might post a question over there:-X

Skiddy, I was wrong in my other post....;D

 

[flousberg]

Actually, the relation to cold fusion was mentioned in a wiki paper I read researching this.

BTW, the one thing that I think of when I hear the arguments against this "technology" by thermodynamics guru's is that it takes equal or more energy to generate energy (or something like that). So how much energy is put in to an atomic bomb to get it to release it's energy? I think it is considerable less than what is released.

Food for thought.

Dan

I am not a Electrical engineer either, but I am a registered Professional Engineer in Chemical Engineering. It does not take a Thermodynamic guru, it simply takes the 2nd law of thermodynamics, see LAW not theory. This simply states that any real process increased the total entropy of the system. What this means is that a process, for example creating HHO gas is not 100% efficient and will increase the enegy of the environment, by heat, etc. It simply takes too much energy to create enough HHO gas to make this process viable. You are a chemist, simply look what energy it takes to break the bond between hyrogen and oxygen. Then take the heating value of hydrogen/mole then take that times the efficiency of the combustible engine and if that is greater than the energy it takes to break the bond, then it will work in theory. Now if some how your math says it is plausible, take the % increase in mileage, calculate the amount of energy that is required to replace that amount of gas, convert that into the molecules of H2 required for that amount of energy, then simply calculate how many watts are required to generate that much HHO. If it is above the capacity of the alternator, it won't work.

Anyway, I am done with this. If you want to waste your money, go for it.

 

[00gyrhed]

I am not a Electrical engineer either, but I am a registered Professional Engineer in Chemical Engineering. It does not take a Thermodynamic guru, it simply takes the 2nd law of thermodynamics, see LAW not theory. This simply states that any real process increased the total entropy of the system. What this means is that a process, for example creating HHO gas is not 100% efficient and will increase the enegy of the environment, by heat, etc. It simply takes too much energy to create enough HHO gas to make this process viable. You are a chemist, simply look what energy it takes to break the bond between hyrogen and oxygen. Then take the heating value of hydrogen/mole then take that times the efficiency of the combustible engine and if that is greater than the energy it takes to break the bond, then it will work in theory. Now if some how your math says it is plausible, take the % increase in mileage, calculate the amount of energy that is required to replace that amount of gas, convert that into the molecules of H2 required for that amount of energy, then simply calculate how many watts are required to generate that much HHO. If it is above the capacity of the alternator, it won't work.

Anyway, I am done with this. If you want to waste your money, go for it.

Your education has closed your mind. You need to leave yourself open to new technology and ideas even though your education and engineering experience causes you to look cautiously upon testimonials from auto mechanics as proof something works. Why if that many people say its true it must be. When I got my BS in chemical engineering in 1981 my professors must not have had a complete understanding of the thermodynamic laws. A whole semister of chemical engineering thermodynamics and a year of physical chemsitry must have been a complete waste. I wonder if I can get my money back? And now after 30 years of practice as a resgistered Mechanical engineer applying those principles and expecting systems to behave according to them, I have now come to the realization that I must be more open minded, and you should too.

Hows that for tone. I hope you could just feel the absolute sarcasm that I felt when I typed it.

I'm with flousberg, go ahead and have fun I am done.

 

[motojoe792]

My girlfriends dad is running this in about 5 plastic olive jars in the back of his nissan truck. He is not trying to sell me anything nor did he buy anything but he does claim 5 to 8 mpg better and proved it to himself since he drives 200-300 miles per week.

Now, he could just be telling me that becasue he does not want to look like a moron driving around with 5 olive jars filled with water inthe back of his truck but accoding to him, it works.

As for me, dirt bikes go in the back of trucks, not jars.

 

[Dave]

I'm not a chemical engineer but I did sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night ;D

I don't think that there is any reason to be condesending or sarcastic in this discussion. I'm 100% certain that this is a scam and my only hope is that some unsuspecting sole isn't taken in by the con men (or women). That really pisses me off. But that is only my opinion. Hey its your money... Here are a few thoughts. Its a simple process that doesn't really take more than a few key strokes to get the information for free to build one. It doesn't appear that anyone offers this as a bolt in and go product. Only plans and a promise of "up to" 40%. -5% qualifies. I've seen a lot of good valid, scientifically based explanation of why it doesn't work. I've only seen testimonial about how great it works. I'd like to see some real dyno test data but you won't because it doesn't work. "Real factory trained and certified mechanic" testimonial is about as valid as the jerk that charged my lady friend $800 for a new Audi fuel pump before he discovered it was the relay after another stranding and tow job. And finally, "The check is in the mail", "I'm getting 50 miles to the gallon", and "I won't ....!" ;D