Why Dana 60?

[nvrstuk]

If you are running your tcase flat I don't think you'll really have any choice other than a hi pinion. So that's an easier decision.
Even dry sump you'll have several inches of pan below the blk casting affecting up travel.

 

[hossbronco]

Thanks for the input. This wasn’t even a concern when I was thinking HP10. The dry sump pan adds 1.7” to the bottom of the block. Still may not be enough for double triangulated.

 

[nvrstuk]

I could look it up but you are an easy resource? So where is the oil pump on the godzilla? L o l

The shortest oil pump I have seen for a stock windsor block is well over five inches.

So you're gaining 3+" there but maybe not enough??

 

[hossbronco]

The oil pump on the stock Godzilla is in the rear, along with the sump. The Godzilla uses a chain to drive a shaft in the front that goes along a windage tray/support to the pump in the rear. So there is no front sump. My new pump will of course be above the pan.

The axle will have plenty of room, especially since the dry sump pan is even smaller on the driver’s side. I couldn’t ask for better. I just haven’t mocked up the crossmember and links, so I’m not sure if they will be long enough and fit where I’d like. I also don’t know how the exhaust will be routed. But I’m not concerned about the axle itself, and I’m confident I will have some version of a 4-link.

 

[nvrstuk]

You should be gold then!!

 

[hossbronco]

Of course all this discussion about the locker, but the 609 R&P is quite a bit stronger than the D60, especially in the 10 inch form (at least how I understand it). The HP10 pinion stem is 1.50”, 35 spline, but with the additional support bearing on the end. The standard Dana 60 pinion stem is 1.626”, 29 spline. And we already discussed the bearings. I’m not sure how the Super 60 stacks up. The higher hypoid angle also gives the 9” better tooth engagement.

Below is an image I stole from True Hi9. On the left is the 5.14 Hi9, which uses the 9” gear, and on the right is the D60 5.13. I don’t have a comparison photo for the HP10.

So I believe the 609 has stronger gears and the D60 has a stronger locker. I’m not sure which is more likely to fail here.

If this is all true, the 609 wins on gear strength, clearance, wheel travel, ease of setup/repair, weight, weldability, and driveline angle. The D60 wins on locker strength and cost. The outers are the same.

As I’m not overly focused on cost, I’m not sure I’m ready to ditch the 609 for a D60. The 14b would be better competition, even though it doesn’t have the benefit of reverse cut gears, but the low pinion probably puts it literally out of reach. I’m open to changing my mind, as I think I’ve shown, but not yet convinced. I’m still on board with the 14b rear.

 

[nvrstuk]

Hate to be that guy but dang, I've only had my HP D60 in 7 yrs and have hammered it pretty good and (knock on wood) no issues. I grenaded 2 TruHi9's. When the ARB case twists in half it will of course wipe out the rest of your rear end... and nodular case in my personal experience. THAT is expensive.

IS the comp ARB that strong? I have no idea as I didn't run it. Wasn't available after I grenaded my first TrueHi9 so there wasn't an option then.

Oiling the TrueHi9. You really need to run the 200wt MUCK they recommend and of course it can't be synthetic as the muck needs to be able to climb that ring gear and somehow find it's way down to that front hidden pinion brg. This is in the rear as I never ran one in the front so not sure what the internals look like but it's still a 9" so can't be much different. Oil scraper placement is extremely critical.

I think what I'm typing up next is important for us that aren't competing 3x/year in the desert:

What I learned again from hard lesson learned experience is that straight 30 wt oil will NOT drain from an oil pan when it's below zero. We had a week of sub -20 deg weather and my 289 wouldn't turn over.... long story, great learning experience but in a nutshell the 30 wt was so thick that it literally "glued" my engine together and wouldn't flow out of the oil pan with the plug pulled for over an hour. Had to encase the engine in blankets, 2 heaters, 2- 300W light bulbs all around the pan trying to warm the oil so 3 batteries on 1/0 jumper cables would turn the engine over. Yeah- really, no exaggeration.

If 30wt won't flow at sub zero temps, what will 200WT oil do at 20 or 40degF? above? Sure wont' protect your brgs and since you won't have locking hubs that means your frt end will be turning ALL the time. I can't see running a specialty front end with 200 wt oil being DD friendly from a lubrication standpoint unless you live in Florida or Panama. lol

Just trying to point out that oiling IS AN ISSUE even with well placed scrapers for peeling the oil off the ring gear when running TrueHi9's. Not sure if the front is setup the same or not but the internals of a 9" is a 9".

Just a trying to point out what could be a non-issue but a lesson learned for me. D60 for the win from this angle.

 

[hossbronco]

This is great discussion. If anyone’s being that guy it’s me.

You bring up a good point with the oiling. I remember running across a manufacturer previously who created a separate oiling housing for the pinion. I can’t seem to find it now, but it illustrated that oiling the pinion is a concern. GearWorks actually recommends using a 250 wt or ISO 1000 oil. According to them there are 4 companies that make this fully synthetic.

Their pinion support has lubrication passages in it (photo). If you think it won’t flow in an open diff in subzero temperatures, try packing it into lubrication passages and see how it flows.

According to Amsoil’s SAE 250 synthetic gear oil data sheet, the pour point is -13F, which seems to be different than your experience. I tend to trust experience more than data sheets. I’m in Texas where it rarely gets below 30F, but that doesn’t mean I won’t travel to colder temperatures or go snow wheeling.

Out of curiosity, how is the oiling in a high pinion D60 so much better? I realize the difference in pinion offset is substantial, but are there other mechanics in play? What weight oil do you use?

 

[Yeller]

I hear ya on the oil. In the summer we would set it in the sun and put it in metal containers. In the winter we would get out the turkey fryer and heat it up.
Don’t worry about the front so much in a high9, not sure on the 10 but the oil level is as high as the bearings so 85/140 is good in my opinion.

D60 oil is 85/140 and on the shelf lol

 

[nvrstuk]

I was going to say the same thing about not having to worry as much with the high 9 up front but with his hubs engaged all the time that does add a little extra potential wear there- I would think.

I tried running my tru high nine in the rear extra full & used inner axle seals to keep the oil in the third member part of the housing only... Tried all the tricks that I knew of and the ones the Truhi9 boys told me but other than a separate remote oiling pump to circulate oil over the pinion brgs .
.

I think Steve was telling me about that option way back when.

Ask the TruHi9 guys about synthetic in their diff's... b u t when you do make sure the phone is at least 6" away from your ear! LOL

 

[hossbronco]

Yeah, I had a conversation with the guy at True Hi9 once. He was pumping his product so full of sunshine that I couldn’t believe a word he said.

I just got off the phone with Barry, who owns GearWorks. He said the 250 wt stuff is if you’re running a HP10 in the rear or a low pinion gear in the front. If you’re driving year-round with an HP10 in the front axle, the stresses in the axle are much lower and you should be fine with 75W-190. If you ever get in really cold stuff, you might consider putting in some 75W-140, but you’d still probably be fine with 75W-190. He doesn’t have a ton of experience with his product in cold weather.

Interestingly enough, his personal rig is 14b rear D60 front.

I don’t mind trying the gears out and replacing them, if it’s not working out, and trying something else.

 

[1969]

Im all for simplicity. I can go down to a parts store and tell them I need x part for my 2008 super duty axles and they will hand it over to me.
Dana 60 >
14 bolt, Sterling 10.5 >

 

[nvrstuk]

"Interestingly enough, his personal rig is 14b rear D60 front."

I am still chuckling about Barry saying his own rig is 14/D60 when he designs and deals with $150,000 Trophy trucks all day.

I don't think you'll go wrong with any of the choices you're looking at. Just thought I'd bring up the oiling issue & how I learned and then "didnt" learn and then had to build my 14.

Learning...

 

[nvrstuk]

Im all for simplicity. I can go down to a parts store and tell them I need x part for my 2008 super duty axles and they will hand it over to me.
Dana 60 >
14 bolt, Sterling 10.5 >

..but do they ask you if it has AC and what size engine??? lol

 

[1969]

..but do they ask you if it has AC and what size engine??? lol

Yes and they are very confused when I tell them no AC, and it’s got a 302, but I forget to mention it’s a bronco and not a super duty.

 

[Madgyver]

I'll play

 

[jamesroney]

I was going to say the same thing about not having to worry as much with the high 9 up front but with his hubs engaged all the time that does add a little extra potential wear there- I would think.

I tried running my tru high nine in the rear extra full & used inner axle seals to keep the oil in the third member part of the housing only... Tried all the tricks that I knew of and the ones the Truhi9 boys told me but other than a separate remote oiling pump to circulate oil over the pinion brgs .
.

I think Steve was telling me about that option way back when.

Ask the TruHi9 guys about synthetic in their diff's... b u t when you do make sure the phone is at least 6" away from your ear! LOL

Winner, winner.
Circle Track guys have been doing it for decades. No shortage of Daytona yokes with the v-belt integrated. Some even put the pump direct drive internally now.

As soon as you start spinning the oil slinger the wrong way, (you call it the "ring gear") then it won't oil. So you have to build a special cavity, and you have to keep that front bearing lubricated. It was never designed to be pulled on. And a high pinion in the rear pulls on the pinion.

I actually cooked my ProRock 60 outer pinion in the front. Running 15 degrees of pinion inclination. You have to have both the slinger, and the baffle, and the flow channel.

I did like the Tera Flex CRD 60 for that reason. Huge pinion bearing at the yoke. But that's only needed for a rear application. And so far...anything short enough to need a high pinion, doesn't weight enough to cook a 60.

Of course I do have pro-rock 60's on both ends of my crawler. But it doesn't weigh anything, it doesn't pull anything, and it get's trailered everywhere.

 

[Yeller]

I'll play

I keep waiting to see these installed

 

[hossbronco]

@nvrstuk, I’ll have to look it up for you, but the upgrade to the RD249CE locker was more than just a material upgrade. Pulling from memory, the biggest upgrades were the material upgrade you mentioned, something to do with deeper clutch gear engagement and being able to engage the locker under load, and locking tabs to keep the ring gear bolts from backing out. GearWorks claims the biggest problem with their competition ARB lockers is their poor assembly. He says they have to disassemble them, clean them up, and rebuild them.

I’ve always been curious what the material upgrade actually is. All I know is that it’s a stronger material. It has to be pretty good to justify costing twice as much as a typical ARB. Their sales material says that the “case is 290% stronger overall compared to standard lockers,” whatever that means. Again I’m sure the 14b and D60 lockers are much stronger, just mentioning the upgrades I’m able to pull from memory.

 

[sprdv1]

Hate to be that guy but dang, I've only had my HP D60 in 7 yrs and have hammered it pretty good and (knock on wood) no issues. I grenaded 2 TruHi9's. When the ARB case twists in half it will of course wipe out the rest of your rear end... and nodular case in my personal experience. THAT is expensive.
D60 for the win from this angle.

another upgrade in my future.. Have been VERY fortunate w/shaved 9" and front d44 37s