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Wilwood brake issue

STalon89

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Joined
Oct 15, 2016
Messages
311
Ok heres a riddle for you guys. I replaced all 4 corners with wilwood disc brakes, and added a wilwood master as well. Everything went together as planned, plumbed it all, no leaks. Double checked push rod length was correct for new master, added wilwoods disc prop valve, bled everything with no issue, pedal feels great. The truck just doesn't stop hard at all, when I stand on the brake it takes a moment to come to a full stop. Ive checked booster is getting proper vacuum, it is, from the manifold. Check valve is working properly, booster is holding vacuum. Inspected the calipers while pressing the brake and they're moving correctly, it's just not coming on hard enough. Im leaning towards faulty master? I have no idea what else to check at this point. Im debating throwing the old master back on and testing it but I wanted to get everyones opinion before opening the brakes back up.
 

duffymahoney

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I have had a brand new wilwood master bad out of the box.

How sure are you that the air is out of the line?
 
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STalon89

STalon89

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Oct 15, 2016
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311
I have had a brand new wilwood master bad out of the box.

How sure are you that the air is out of the line?

Interesting.
Bled them like crazy. Squirting fluid out from all 4 calipers with no air. What symptoms did you have when you got that bad master from them?
 
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STalon89

STalon89

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Oct 15, 2016
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Only thing I havent done yet was measure hot idle vacuum pressure. Also, bore size is 1.12 (what they recommended)
 

68Broncoz

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Dec 12, 2017
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Did you bleed the master cylinder before installing?
Chris
 

Apogee

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Which Wilwood brake kits are you running? Are you running the standard BP-10 pads that are supplied? What vacuum booster (size and configuration, i.e. dual-Ø8") are you running and what's your engine vacuum level at warm idle? Have you tested the booster to make sure that it's functioning properly?

What you're describing just sounds like a general low brake-torque scenario, which can be caused by several things, including but not limited to low vacuum, undersized booster, numerically low pedal ratio, oversized MC bore size, low brake pad CoF, high GVW, etc, or some combination thereof.

A faulty master cylinder will almost never result in a high, firm pedal, but that doesn't mean that it isn't oversized for the application. Would I be correct to assume that you do not have a brake pressure gauge?

Tobin
 

rydog1130

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Jun 19, 2014
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You could try lengthening the push rod a few turns and see if that helps? I used a measuring tool to set the length but still ended up adjusting the push rod length.
 
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STalon89

STalon89

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Which Wilwood brake kits are you running? Are you running the standard BP-10 pads that are supplied? What vacuum booster (size and configuration, i.e. dual-Ø8") are you running and what's your engine vacuum level at warm idle? Have you tested the booster to make sure that it's functioning properly?

What you're describing just sounds like a general low brake-torque scenario, which can be caused by several things, including but not limited to low vacuum, undersized booster, numerically low pedal ratio, oversized MC bore size, low brake pad CoF, high GVW, etc, or some combination thereof.

A faulty master cylinder will almost never result in a high, firm pedal, but that doesn't mean that it isn't oversized for the application. Would I be correct to assume that you do not have a brake pressure gauge?

Tobin

140-13303N is the front kit, 140-13664N is the rear. Running the stock pads that came with the kit. Im not sure the size of the booster. It looks to be aftermarket but it was assisting 4 wheel drums before I made the switch. I tested the check valve, and tested that the booster was holding vacuum, both good. I don't have a brake pressure gauge but Im certainly going to look into that as one of my next tests. Is there a way to test the booster or determine the size to know if it's too small?
 
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STalon89

STalon89

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Oct 15, 2016
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You could try lengthening the push rod a few turns and see if that helps? I used a measuring tool to set the length but still ended up adjusting the push rod length.

I too bought the expensive tool to measure that haha. I havent tried bringing it out any further to test that yet. I assumed if it was push rod related I would get a different feel in the pedal
 

Zoomin

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Jul 5, 2021
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What is the bore size of your master?
When you say prop valve, are you able to adjust front/rear bias with it?
 

BUCKWILD

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Jun 20, 2016
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Loc.
Butte county
Did you seat the brakes in properly or just go out and start standing on them? if you didn't you could have problems. If you did seat them drive around a bit and just drag them while driving and get some heat built up and see if that helps, if so you have a hard pad and need a softer pad. Performance brake pads come in different levels for race or street and many in between
 
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STalon89

STalon89

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What is the bore size of your master?
When you say prop valve, are you able to adjust front/rear bias with it?

1.12 The wilwood proportioning valve has that adjustment yes. I did mess with that as well
 
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STalon89

STalon89

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Did you seat the brakes in properly or just go out and start standing on them? if you didn't you could have problems. If you did seat them drive around a bit and just drag them while driving and get some heat built up and see if that helps, if so you have a hard pad and need a softer pad. Performance brake pads come in different levels for race or street and many in between

I noticed this issue right away during the seating process. Literally not enough stopping power to begin to seat them
 

Apogee

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140-13303N is the front kit, 140-13664N is the rear. Running the stock pads that came with the kit. Im not sure the size of the booster. It looks to be aftermarket but it was assisting 4 wheel drums before I made the switch. I tested the check valve, and tested that the booster was holding vacuum, both good. I don't have a brake pressure gauge but Im certainly going to look into that as one of my next tests. Is there a way to test the booster or determine the size to know if it's too small?

I question the wisdom of running a Ø1.125" bore master cylinder with those two Wilwood kits, as they're designed to operated at higher pressures than the factory Ford or GM type disc brakes commonly found on EB's. Generally speaking, the best/easiest way to increase operating pressures is to decrease the MC bore size or increase the booster size. Given our space limitations under the hood, short of going hydroboost, you can only go so big with vacuum type power brake boosters, with a dual-9" being about the largest I've seen fit on an angled type bracket.

The 140-13303-* Wilwood front kit uses a compact Dynapro 6-piston caliper with 5.06 sq inches of effective piston area, a full 23% less than the factory Ford single-piston calipers with Ø2.88 piston diameters, and ~25% less than the GM D52 calipers with Ø2.94" pistons. To generate the same brake torque as either the Ford or GM factory kits, you would need to supply an additional 23-25% pressure to the calipers. You can do this by pushing harder on the pedal, or reducing the MC bore size...I know what I'd do. If you were to run a Ø1" bore MC, that's about a 23% difference in MC piston area, so that seems like a logical choice.

Just an aside, but the front rotor is Ø11.75" diameter, so virtually the same as the factory Ford rotors which measure Ø11.72". While the diameters are similar, the Ford rotors are ~1.18" thick versus .81" for the Wilwood rotors, a full .37" thinner than the OE rotors. The thermal mass of the OE rotors is significantly greater, which provides more thermal capacity and therefore better resistance to fading, lower average operating temperatures, etc. While this doesn't impact effective brake torque (not until the brakes fade anyway), it is a significant step in the wrong direction if your goal was to have higher performance brakes overall. That said, the rear discs should help, but they're only doing about 20-30% of the work on an EB depending on your rig.

Tobin
 
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STalon89

STalon89

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Oct 15, 2016
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I question the wisdom of running a Ø1.125" bore master cylinder with those two Wilwood kits, as they're designed to operated at higher pressures than the factory Ford or GM type disc brakes commonly found on EB's. Generally speaking, the best/easiest way to increase operating pressures is to decrease the MC bore size or increase the booster size. Given our space limitations under the hood, short of going hydroboost, you can only go so big with vacuum type power brake boosters, with a dual-9" being about the largest I've seen fit on an angled type bracket.

The 140-13303-* Wilwood front kit uses a compact Dynapro 6-piston caliper with 5.06 sq inches of effective piston area, a full 23% less than the factory Ford single-piston calipers with Ø2.88 piston diameters, and ~25% less than the GM D52 calipers with Ø2.94" pistons. To generate the same brake torque as either the Ford or GM factory kits, you would need to supply an additional 23-25% pressure to the calipers. You can do this by pushing harder on the pedal, or reducing the MC bore size...I know what I'd do. If you were to run a Ø1" bore MC, that's about a 23% difference in MC piston area, so that seems like a logical choice.

Just an aside, but the front rotor is Ø11.75" diameter, so virtually the same as the factory Ford rotors which measure Ø11.72". While the diameters are similar, the Ford rotors are ~1.18" thick versus .81" for the Wilwood rotors, a full .37" thinner than the OE rotors. The thermal mass of the OE rotors is significantly greater, which provides more thermal capacity and therefore better resistance to fading, lower average operating temperatures, etc. While this doesn't impact effective brake torque (not until the brakes fade anyway), it is a significant step in the wrong direction if your goal was to have higher performance brakes overall. That said, the rear discs should help, but they're only doing about 20-30% of the work on an EB depending on your rig.

Tobin

This information is incredibly helpful, I appreciate it. I have a 1" master incoming and will make that swap to see if it corrects/helps things.
 

rydog1130

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I also ended up going w/ 1.125 or 1-1/8" bore make sure if you switch it up you get the correct MC w/ the ports on the correct side!
 

68ford

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Dec 26, 2004
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It's not good news, I have that same.brale.kit and noticed not great results as well. Found out, those 6 piston calipers have such small pistons that the clamping force is actually less than a stock caliper. Quite a bit less than a T bird caliper. I noticed basically no improvement over stock except when they get warm, they slightly improve. Where OEM does not.
 

68ford

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Oops did not see Apogees thorough description of the spec.
If your brakes are still not to you liking with a 1in bore and the pedal travel is not excessive, wilwood makes a 7/8 master. My buddy runs on with all stock disc and drums from a 76-77 without power and it stops awesome with 35in tires.
 
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