Crate engine help. 302, 331, or 347?

[pooterpot]

so those pistons wouldnt be good with afrs? would dish top pistons be better? so youre saying tfs heads would be about the same in low to mid range and save me some money?

 

[tabascom16]

Try and keep the compression below 10:1. Around 9.5:1 would be a good compression for aluminum heads. Mine is 9.6 with the 185's and I run 89 octane. Never tried 87 octane.

If it already has heads dont worry about getting AFR's. The gains over what is already comes with will be too small to justify.

I will agree that cam is a little too big. I would recommend the two cam grinds lower than that (around 212/216?) for a 331 in a daily driver. The roller cam over flat tappet might give you very minimal gains in torque but will problaby get you a few more HP in the higher RPM's because extra valve lift. As they say the biggest mistake most people make is getting too big of a cam.

Don't jump the gun on getting an engine. Do some research on components. I see they just list generic items with no names for a lot of the stuff. That typically means they aren't the best components out there but will problaby be ok for what you are looking to do.

As far as HP and torque estimates, each one will be a little lower than tested on tehre with a lower compression ratio.

 

[broncnaz]

so those pistons wouldnt be good with afrs? would dish top pistons be better? so youre saying tfs heads would be about the same in low to mid range and save me some money?

I had some bad info on the AFR combustion chamber size I thought they were 53cc it turns out you can get them in 58,61,or 64cc so they will be ok for that engine
Quote pooterpot
"how much valve relief would i need in pistons?
so i think im going to get a 331 shortblock with cast steel crank, hypereutectic pistons, i-beam rods, and the afr165's. sound right?
estimated hp and tq?"
The shop building the engine should know how much valve relief you will need for your heads.
Mustangs and fast fords did a test on a 331 with the same sized cam but they used the AFR 185's they pulled 448 hp at 6100 rpm and 445 ft lbs at 4300 rpm. at 3000 rpm your looking at 225hp 350 ft lbs which almost all the heads tested were very close to this number. I'm not sure how much you would lose with the 165's maybe 20 hp if that. but still the camshaft in this engine is ill suited for a heavy 4x4 daily driver torque wise its fine because the 331 puts out the torque from the get go but your peaks should be closer to your actual driving range for most of us with daily drivers the closer to 3000 rpm it is the better. your mileage and driveablity will be better beacuse its running within its power band just loafing instead of lugging because the powerband starts above 3000 rpm.

 

[pooterpot]

are you referring to th cam that is mentioned in blue at the bottom of the 331 description?
is this price good
http://www.speedomotive.com/302_to_331_long_rod_stroker_engi.htm

 

[broncnaz]

I remember see a test on comp ratios somewhere. If I remeber right there wasnt a whole lot of differance in HP/TQ output when it was changed on the same engine something like 10hp even when dropped or raised 2 full points. But certain cams require a certain amount of CR to run properly.

I feel for you Pooterpot we are throwing a lot of info your way that may not make much sense. Just keep in mind that there are a lot of factors that go into an engine first is the type of vehicle its in then what type of driving you do then you need to decide what you want something with good power and gas mileage or all power and no gas mileage. To me you need to build the engine around the camshaft thats correct for your driving style or needs.

I dont claim to know it all but on my first rebuild of my bronco's engine. I had a cam that was too big for the engine and my bronco along with heads that were messed up from the machine shop while it sounded great and ran good once you got it rolling the low end was terrible within a month I swapped that cam out for one 2 sizes lower and it was much improved but thats when I found out my heads were part of the problem. eventually I put on TFS heads and went up another size with the cam runs great now.

 

[broncnaz]

are you referring to th cam that is mentioned in blue at the bottom of the 331 description?
is this price good
http://www.speedomotive.com/302_to_331_long_rod_stroker_engi.htm

Yes
Most of the prices are within reason it seems that it all depends on what name of parts they are throwing on the engine. The bigger the name the higher the price.

 

[pooterpot]

that cam isnt included in the short block is it?

 

[pooterpot]

so what cc head do i need? ill have to call a cam company to find the right cam? stock length pushrods will work? ill need lifters too? is that all ill need with the short block and the heads? what does it mean on the afr website when it says hardened pushrods with part number 1400 and 1402 required?

 

[broncnaz]

I believe that cam is in the short block to as most short blocks come with cams.
I would cam a cam company and see what they suggest for your needs they will also or at least should recommend a CR range to run that cam As for CC of the heads it depends on the pistons in the engine. This is from one of your posts the one with keith black pistons so depending on what cc head syou go with on this engine these are the estimated CR's you'll just have to decide if matches your cam requirements I would lean towards the 60cc heads for this engine
COMP. RATIO: 55cc =10.23-1, 60cc = 9.65-1, 64cc =9.25-1, 70cc = 8.67-1
Most aftermarket heads will require longer than stock pushrods but another factor here is the roller cam they use pushrods that are shorter than your hydralic lifter pushrods. Once again the best bet here would be to call the head company and see what they suggest. You may need lifter also.
Its hard to say what exactly you'll need for some of these short blocks you will have to talk to the company selling them to find out for sure but some items that may be in question are the flex plate will it work with a C-4? As some are balanced for the early 302's others for the 5.0 engine and have the AOD bolt patteren and wont fit the C-4 along the same lines the harmonic balancer may be the 5.0 type so your stock pulleys will not work but you can get balancers that will work with your pulleys. other than that everything else from you 302 should bolt on with no problems.

 

[pooterpot]

i already have a new balancer that is 28oz for early 302s. i cant use the flex plate i have now? balancing reasons? what about the torque converter?

 

[broncnaz]

what does it mean on the afr website when it says hardened pushrods with part number 1400 and 1402 required?

The stud mounted rocker arm heads ie 1400 and 1402 require hardened pusrods because they have guide plates which keep the rocker arms aligned with the valve stems. The pushrods ride against these plate and unless they are hardened they will wear out very quickly. If you go with the pedastel mount heads you dont need hardened pushrods because the design of the rockers keep them aligned but they provide not means to adjust your valves. So you have to get the correct lenght pushrods for your combo or you will have valve tapping noises although they do sell shim kits to help adjust these type but I beleive your limited to .060 of adjustment if you need more than that you will need different pushrods.

 

[broncnaz]

i already have a new balancer that is 28oz for early 302s. i cant use the flex plate i have now? balancing reasons? what about the torque converter? i cant find a phone number for the short block site

This depends on the company thats making the short blocks some use the old 28 in oz cranks others use the new 5.0 50in oz cranks. If its a 28 in oz based motor then you can reuse all your old/new stuff. If its the 50in oz based motor you will need a flex plate for a 50 in oz motor with the correct C-4 bolt pattern on your converter and a balancer that will accept your stock pulleys. or just a flex plate and convert over to the serpentine pulley system. with all brackets ect. Your TQ converter will work with either engine

 

[pooterpot]

so the pushrods may work? should i get a high flow waterpump? ill think of moe questions later? thanks for your help b-naz

 

[broncnaz]

stock pushrods will only work on pedastel mount heads with a hydraulic flat tappet cam. As for the High flow water pump that is up to you but it cant hurt. Yeah I have to go to need to paint a new brake drum and repaint a bellhousing for my 71.

 

[tabascom16]

I've heard that high flow water pumps are not good for a daily driver because it pushes the water through the radiator too quick to cool it down properly. I don't know how true this is but a regular water pump should do you just fine. I would get a better radiator before a water pump. As far as push rods they will probalby need to be custom made. A local engine builder would have the tool to get the proper length pushrods and they will know to get hardened ones.

If you want to stick with the c-4 the stock one should hold up. If not you can get stronger "race-ready" c-4s.

 

[pooterpot]

i forgot to mention that i already have stock length comp magnum pushrods and 1.7 roller rockers. it says .550" hydraulic roller on the afr page. is the .550" the max cam lobe lift or the max valve lift or is there a difference? and by hydraulic roller it means that the heads are meant for hydraulic roller cams which means i need roller lifters and pushrods to match. do i need the 61cc heads? do the head bolts come with the heads or should i use stock or order ARPs and what size would i need.i may run out of questions momentarily and that probably means i know what i need. ive decided on what to get now the questions is specs. it seems that i may spend between 3500 and 4000 bones!

 

[tabascom16]

the .550" lift is the maximum valve lift. With 1.7 rockers and a roller cam I can almost say for sure you will be over that limit. The springs basically become fully compressed around that amount of valve lift. It is problaby a little bit of money to get them upgraded like the AFR 205 heads have that can handle more lift.

I would say it is doubtful any stock length pushrods will work with aftermarket heads and roller rockers.

 

[broncnaz]

i forgot to mention that i already have stock length comp magnum pushrods and 1.7 roller rockers. it says .550" hydraulic roller on the afr page. is the .550" the max cam lobe lift or the max valve lift or is there a difference? and by hydraulic roller it means that the heads are meant for hydraulic roller cams which means i need roller lifters and pushrods to match. do i need the 61cc heads? do the head bolts come with the heads or should i use stock or order ARPs and what size would i need.

I doubt that you will be able to use the stock lenght pushrods while the magnums are hardened the problem is the heads require longer than stock pushrods and a roller cam requires shorter pushrods even with this offset I dont think the stock push rods will work. As for the 1.7 rockers it depends on what cam shaft you end up getting you may want to get one that has slightly lower lift and duration as the 1.7 rockers will increase the lift and duration slightly not real sure how much more lift .030+ maybe but not real sure they are really not the thing to run on a bronco unless you need more out of your cam. As for the valve spring .550 max lift that is at the valve take the 274 cam in the short blocks you've been looking at the cam lobe will only be about .347 thats where the 1.6 rocker ratio come in to play making .555 lift at the valve 1.7 rockers will make it .590 lift at the valve.
I believe the AFR site recommends installing different spring for roller cams with over .550 lift although they may sell some already setup that way but I didnt see any. If you go with a smaller cam you should be ok with the springs that come on the heads other wise you'll have to buy different ones. The heads can be used with any type of cam you just have to make sure the valve springs are compatible with the cam you want to run. Yes if you go with a roller cam you will need roller lifters and pushrods that will fit your heads but check with the engine builder lifters may be included.
I would go with the 61CC heads to keep the CR around 9.5-1 although the 64cc heads dont really drop the CR that much all depends on if you want to run premium gas or not.
Head bolts dont come with the heads you'll need to get some ARP's are good just get the ones listed in AFR recommended parts but stock sized ones should work but use new ones. keep in mind that you will also need to order the specail head bolt washers listed as 302 blocks have 7/16" bolts but the heads are drilled for 1/2" bolts.

 

[horseman]

Go to the store and get a copy of MUSTANG & FAST FORDS you will see every engine combo out there. Call a couple venders make sure to give them as much info about ( trans gears tires ) tell them how you intend do use your bronco. Rember torque is the numbers you should consider high h/p numbers are only high rpm 4k thur 6k you will rarely see that much rmp.
TORQUE 1500 - 4000 rmp is where you you be most of the time. Look for a
combo that will delivers a nice flat torque line. A modest 351 will deliver the numbers your looking for vs a high strung 302 . The 302 will work but it will
be working a lot harder. 400 h/p is a lot of power just be realalistic when talking to your engine builder.

 

[71BroncoBoy]

Go gor a 351 Windsor aka 351W very popular and fun to work on....

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